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Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

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Pedro Camello

Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

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Hi all,

I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around 600K Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease of use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions with these scopes.

Thanks

Sacha Escamez

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

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Dear pedro,

The institute where I work recently had a similar situation and sent the main confocal users (including myself) on trips the test sites of the main manufacturers.
Especially, in two occasions I got a chance to visit both Leica and Zeiss (two visits each) to test the limits of their systems with some of the most difficult samples in the research area of the institute where I work.

When it comes to "user-friendliness", the Leica SP8 performs extremely well. Zeiss has gotten a lot better when moving from AxioVision software to Zen black and Zen blue, but the SP8 system remains more intuitive to use by non-specialists in my humble opinion.

However, my institute decided to go for the Zeiss LSM880 (this was just before the release of the LSM980) based on specific applications where the Airyscan feature from Zeiss performed a bit better in terms of speed and of resolution deep into our difficult and thick plant samples than the HyVolution and/or resonance scanner from Leica could. Hence, the question of the resolution (spatial and temporal) probably depends a lot on what sort of sample are expected to be most often used with the microscope.

Sincerely

Sacha

Sacha Escamez, PhD
Independent post-doctoral researcher
Umeå Plant Science Centre (UPSC)
Department of Forest Genetics and Plant Physiology
The Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences (SLU)
901 83 Umeå, Sweden
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
Sent: den 19 januari 2020 22:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around 600K Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease of use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions with these scopes.

Thanks

Csúcs Gábor-3

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

In reply to this post by Pedro Camello

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This could be an almost endless discussion. Just for the completeness: not so long ago we have tested both an SP8 and an LSM880-Airy scan (which we by the way have in our facility). At the end we have decided for an Olympus FV3000.... :-)

Greetings Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
Sent: Sunday, 19 January 2020 22:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around 600K Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease of use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions with these scopes.

Thanks

PAVAK SHAH

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Are you a cat person or a dog person? I prefer fish.

The only way to decide something like this is to prep some challenging
samples you plan to work with, spend some hands on time with each
instrument, test a variety of objectives from each vendor, and make sure
their software meets your needs. Also, talk to your neighbors- which vendor
provides better and faster support and service in your area?

Not sure the bells and whistles options will fit in the budget, but Leica
has the white light laser for spectral flexibility and the DLS lightsheet
add on, Zeiss has airyscan for resolution and sectioning improvements, and
neither has good silicone oil objectives.

Best,
Pavak

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:37 AM Csucs Gabor <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> This could be an almost endless discussion. Just for the completeness: not
> so long ago we have tested both an SP8 and an LSM880-Airy scan (which we by
> the way have in our facility). At the end we have decided for an Olympus
> FV3000.... :-)
>
> Greetings Gabor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
> Sent: Sunday, 19 January 2020 22:36
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around 600K
> Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease of
> use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates
> are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
> I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions
> with these scopes.
>
> Thanks
>

George McNamara

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

In reply to this post by Pedro Camello

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Pedro,

You could acquire two basic Leica SP8 confocal microscopes for the
around 600K budget ... more stuff (more SMD HyDs) with some negotiations
and if you have old confocals available for trade-in (in the U.S., Leica
-- and the other vendors -- sometimes offer $60K trade-in credit 1:1 ...
so if you can find two scanheads, you could do 2:2). If you really need
resolution too, you can use the fact you have nice quote with 2 scanhead
trade in to negotiate with Zeiss on what you need for that. I also note
that most of the SP8 can be upgraded on site, so, for example, could
start with 4 SMD HyD's (fast photon countign), no pulsed laser, no AOBS,
in the future add AOBS, pulsed laser(s), FALCON (high end PC +
software), perhaps X1 port with four more SMD HyDs (GaAsP for vis, GaAs
for >712nm - ~880 nm NIR and/or APDs (APDs are superior QE in NIR,
typically slower counting).

Our Leica SP8 has: DMi8 inverted stand, 63x/1.4 NA oil immersion
objective lens, two (2nd gen) HyD photon counting detectors, basic 4
laser lines, more details at

http://confocal.jhu.edu/current-equipment/leica-sp8-confocal-microscope/g
<http://confocal.jhu.edu/current-equipment/leica-sp8-confocal-microscope/>

I suggest 2020 version of 2 SP8's (and dual trade in) with four SMD
HyD's (each fast photon counting) + LIGHTNING (or on separate
workstation put SVI's Huygens + big GPU license and best-within=budget
GPU[s]) + one pulsed laser for FALCON (fast FLIM) plus fast workstations
to support FALCON, and maybe a nice long working distance objective
lenses for each (maybe 25x/0.95NA W) could fit in your budget. The
microscope vendors skim on stupid stuff: be sure to insist - and double
check quote - for LED light sources and the filter sets you want to use
for eye (i.e. LP and/or BP ... LP gets more light, often more confusion,
BP is more selective for specified fluorophores, but dimmer and misses
what else is going on ... the user is at the confocal to acquire, not
just admire, so the data on the computer monitor is what is critical).
Speakign of which: nice monitor(s) for your instrument(s).

**

I heard that Zeiss no longer provides the raw data for AiryScan 2, which
means Huygens cannot process that data (note: my info could be out of date).

So, my Request to you and everyone else: refuse to buy AiryScan2 until
Zeiss makes their raw data and format, and ideally source code, open.
Ideally also Zeiss should provide in Fiji ImageJ a plugin to open the
raw data format.

**

I also suggest:

* 10 Gbe Ethernet, maybe 40 Gbe Ethernet (i.e. 4x faster, 3x price,
could especially be worth it if deconvolution on a different workstation
... or if Zeiss has "AiryScan computations" on another workstations).
PCIe cards, network switch (our entire core is now served by a Netgear
10Gbe 8-port unmanaged switch ... 1 Gigabyte/sec transfer between
computers [10 Gbe = 1.25 Gigabyte/sec, but expect some overhead ... see
also p.s.). We are now CAT7 (shielded) cable throughout our image core
(2 rooms, some 100' = ~30m cables).

* fast NVMe M.2 SSD(s), see CES 2020 show info on web, for example, this
story on Phison 8TB and 16TB M.2 NVMe's (PCIe gen4),

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/phison-displays-8tb-m2-16tb-sata-ssds-at-ces-2020

* PCIe gen4 motherboard (big board, lots of x16 slots) and CPU [or two
on motherboard] ... currently only new AMD CPUs support "gen4" (not
Intel), see, for example of CPU (note: most microscope vendor software
probably does not take advantage of 2 threads, let alone 128 threads ...
CPU cost is trivial part of $600K budget),

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-announces-threadripper-3990x-64-cores-and-128-threads-with-280w-tdp

PCIe gen4 has been out for a couple of months. If one (or both) vendor
quotes do not specify PCIe gen4, I suggest you find a local computer
person/people to build the computer(s)yourself.

p.s. Ethernet fun: my colleague Kevin Murphy, PhD, found on the Internet
info that enabling -- in Device Manager, for each card -- "Jumbo Frames"
(9018 bytes for each PCIe 10Gbe network card) and disabling all the
"LSO" options, gained us ~5% increase in transfer speed, i.e. 1.05
Gigabytes/sec (Jumbo Frames enabled) vs ~1.00 Gigabytes/sec (defaults).
My analogy: 5% net pay raise for 2 minutes of configuring cards. Should
be even more gain with PCIe gen4 and 40 Gbe.

Some numbers (check wikipedia for details, some numbers rounded) -- I
note that gen3 x8 already exceeds the performance of 40 Gbe Ethernet:

PCIe gen3 x4 ... 4 Gigabytes/sec.

PCIe gen3 x8 ... 8 Gigabytes/sec.

PCIe gen3 x16 ... 16 Gigabytes/sec.

PCIe gen4 x4 ... 8 Gigabytes/sec.

PCIe gen4 x8 ... 16 Gigabytes/sec.

PCIe gen4 x16 ... 32 Gigabytes/sec.

(note not many PCIe cards are going to be available to take advantage of
the speeds above).

10 Gbe Ethernet ... 1.25 Gigabytes/sec (ignoring Windows etc
overhead, assumes fast drives on both ends, no other network traffic
locally).

40 Gbe Ethernet ... 5.00 Gigabytes/sec (ignoring Windows etc
overhead, assumes fast drives on both ends, no other network traffic
locally).

100 Gbe Ethernet ... 12.50 Gigabytes/sec (ignoring Windows etc overhead,
assumes fast drives on both ends, no other network traffic locally).

A card(s) that caught my eye (on amazon, this is qnap link, only "gen3"
in current version) has both 2 NVMe SSDs and 10 Gbe Ethernet as a
potential practical solution -- especially since does not need BIOS PCIe
bifurcation, unlike the ASUS Hyper M.2 card I've mentioned in previous
thread(s) (QNAP ~$300, 2 NVMe, 10 Gbe, I believe no need for bifurcation
[will find out tomorrow] vs ASUS ~$60, 4 NVMe, no Ethernet, requires
bifurcation).

https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qm2-m.2ssd-10gbe

Hopefully the microscope vendors will "nail the landing" on the computer
and network components ... don't count on it, especially since academic
(or companies buying confocals, multiphotons, light sheets, etc) could
build our own in lab for less than the vendors currently charge for HP
or Dell.

Happy 2020,

George

On 1/19/2020 4:35 PM, Pedro Camello wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around 600K Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease of use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
> I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions with these scopes.
>
> Thanks

George McNamara

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

In reply to this post by PAVAK SHAH

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I already posted about our Leica SP8 (two basic SP8's can fit in the
thread's ~600K Euro budget).

We also have an Olympus FV3000RS with 3 silicone oil immersion lenses
(HP Z440 now 10 Gbe Ethernet and ASUS Hyper M.2 PCIe x16 (gen 3) + four
1TB NVMe cards ... 1.05 Gigabytes/sec transfer to our server):

http://confocal.jhu.edu/current-equipment/fv3000/

NIH S10 grant $442K -- thanks again to NIH, reviewers and U.S.
taxpayers) + $60K trade in credit for our obsolete Zeiss LSM510META
scanhead.

Both our Leica SP8 and Olympus FV3000RS are currently heavily used.

**

Our SP8 was purchased on a lease to buy ... an interesting approach
COULD be to negotiate hard, get the microscope(s) equipped with what the
user needs, and if over budget, compute, based on user fees, whether a
lease-to-buy could cover the rest of the purchase. Probably simpler to
paraphrase the Rolling Stones, "get what you need" now and "add what you
want" later.

happy 2020,

George

On 1/20/2020 11:13 AM, PAVAK SHAH wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Are you a cat person or a dog person? I prefer fish.
>
> The only way to decide something like this is to prep some challenging
> samples you plan to work with, spend some hands on time with each
> instrument, test a variety of objectives from each vendor, and make sure
> their software meets your needs. Also, talk to your neighbors- which vendor
> provides better and faster support and service in your area?
>
> Not sure the bells and whistles options will fit in the budget, but Leica
> has the white light laser for spectral flexibility and the DLS lightsheet
> add on, Zeiss has airyscan for resolution and sectioning improvements, and
> neither has good silicone oil objectives.
>
> Best,
> Pavak
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:37 AM Csucs Gabor <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> This could be an almost endless discussion. Just for the completeness: not
>> so long ago we have tested both an SP8 and an LSM880-Airy scan (which we by
>> the way have in our facility). At the end we have decided for an Olympus
>> FV3000.... :-)
>>
>> Greetings Gabor
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
>> Sent: Sunday, 19 January 2020 22:36
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around 600K
>> Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease of
>> use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates
>> are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
>> I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions
>> with these scopes.
>>
>> Thanks
>>

Craig Brideau

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

As always, who has the better service in your area? Do you see your Zeiss
rep or your Leica rep around more frequently? How do users in your area
rate their Zeiss/Leica service? How long does it take for a service
representative to arrive after a call? For the long haul, this will
probably be the most important aspect of your purchase.

Craig

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:00 AM George McNamara <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I already posted about our Leica SP8 (two basic SP8's can fit in the
> thread's ~600K Euro budget).
>
> We also have an Olympus FV3000RS with 3 silicone oil immersion lenses
> (HP Z440 now 10 Gbe Ethernet and ASUS Hyper M.2 PCIe x16 (gen 3) + four
> 1TB NVMe cards ... 1.05 Gigabytes/sec transfer to our server):
>
> http://confocal.jhu.edu/current-equipment/fv3000/
>
> NIH S10 grant $442K -- thanks again to NIH, reviewers and U.S.
> taxpayers) + $60K trade in credit for our obsolete Zeiss LSM510META
> scanhead.
>
> Both our Leica SP8 and Olympus FV3000RS are currently heavily used.
>
> **
>
> Our SP8 was purchased on a lease to buy ... an interesting approach
> COULD be to negotiate hard, get the microscope(s) equipped with what the
> user needs, and if over budget, compute, based on user fees, whether a
> lease-to-buy could cover the rest of the purchase. Probably simpler to
> paraphrase the Rolling Stones, "get what you need" now and "add what you
> want" later.
>
> happy 2020,
>
> George
>
> On 1/20/2020 11:13 AM, PAVAK SHAH wrote:
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> > *****
> >
> > Are you a cat person or a dog person? I prefer fish.
> >
> > The only way to decide something like this is to prep some challenging
> > samples you plan to work with, spend some hands on time with each
> > instrument, test a variety of objectives from each vendor, and make sure
> > their software meets your needs. Also, talk to your neighbors- which
> vendor
> > provides better and faster support and service in your area?
> >
> > Not sure the bells and whistles options will fit in the budget, but Leica
> > has the white light laser for spectral flexibility and the DLS lightsheet
> > add on, Zeiss has airyscan for resolution and sectioning improvements,
> and
> > neither has good silicone oil objectives.
> >
> > Best,
> > Pavak
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:37 AM Csucs Gabor <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> *****
> >> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> >> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> >> *****
> >>
> >> This could be an almost endless discussion. Just for the completeness:
> not
> >> so long ago we have tested both an SP8 and an LSM880-Airy scan (which
> we by
> >> the way have in our facility). At the end we have decided for an Olympus
> >> FV3000.... :-)
> >>
> >> Greetings Gabor
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]
> ]
> >> On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
> >> Sent: Sunday, 19 January 2020 22:36
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM
> >>
> >> *****
> >> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> >> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> >> *****
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around
> 600K
> >> Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease
> of
> >> use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two candidates
> >> are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
> >> I would appreciate if someone in the list can share experiences/opinions
> >> with these scopes.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
>

Steffen Dietzel

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

My thoughts exactly. Apart from the Hardware specialties which may or
may not be interesting for you (such as gated detection or even included
FLIM with the Leica WLL and other stuff that has been mentioned by
others), your own experience with your samples on the system and the
experience of others with the local service situation should be considered.

I would recommend to also get a quote for a maintenance contract for the
years 2-5 (assuming warranty is 12 month), just to know what you will
have to face. Make sure all lasers are included.

Steffen

Am 20.01.2020 um 18:54 schrieb Craig Brideau:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> As always, who has the better service in your area? Do you see your Zeiss
> rep or your Leica rep around more frequently? How do users in your area
> rate their Zeiss/Leica service? How long does it take for a service
> representative to arrive after a call? For the long haul, this will
> probably be the most important aspect of your purchase.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:00 AM George McNamara
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> I already posted about our Leica SP8 (two basic SP8's can fit in the
>> thread's ~600K Euro budget).
>>
>> We also have an Olympus FV3000RS with 3 silicone oil immersion lenses
>> (HP Z440 now 10 Gbe Ethernet and ASUS Hyper M.2 PCIe x16 (gen 3) + four
>> 1TB NVMe cards ... 1.05 Gigabytes/sec transfer to our server):
>>
>> http://confocal.jhu.edu/current-equipment/fv3000/
>>
>> NIH S10 grant $442K -- thanks again to NIH, reviewers and U.S.
>> taxpayers) + $60K trade in credit for our obsolete Zeiss LSM510META
>> scanhead.
>>
>> Both our Leica SP8 and Olympus FV3000RS are currently heavily used.
>>
>> **
>>
>> Our SP8 was purchased on a lease to buy ... an interesting approach
>> COULD be to negotiate hard, get the microscope(s) equipped with what the
>> user needs, and if over budget, compute, based on user fees, whether a
>> lease-to-buy could cover the rest of the purchase. Probably simpler to
>> paraphrase the Rolling Stones, "get what you need" now and "add what you
>> want" later.
>>
>> happy 2020,
>>
>> George
>>
>> On 1/20/2020 11:13 AM, PAVAK SHAH wrote:
>>> *****
>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
>> posting.
>>> *****
>>>
>>> Are you a cat person or a dog person? I prefer fish.
>>>
>>> The only way to decide something like this is to prep some challenging
>>> samples you plan to work with, spend some hands on time with each
>>> instrument, test a variety of objectives from each vendor, and make sure
>>> their software meets your needs. Also, talk to your neighbors- which
>> vendor
>>> provides better and faster support and service in your area?
>>>
>>> Not sure the bells and whistles options will fit in the budget, but
>>> Leica
>>> has the white light laser for spectral flexibility and the DLS
>>> lightsheet
>>> add on, Zeiss has airyscan for resolution and sectioning improvements,
>> and
>>> neither has good silicone oil objectives.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Pavak
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:37 AM Csucs Gabor <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *****
>>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>>>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
>> posting.
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> This could be an almost endless discussion. Just for the completeness:
>> not
>>>> so long ago we have tested both an SP8 and an LSM880-Airy scan (which
>> we by
>>>> the way have in our facility). At the end we have decided for an
>>>> Olympus
>>>> FV3000.... :-)
>>>>
>>>> Greetings Gabor
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]
>> ]
>>>> On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
>>>> Sent: Sunday, 19 January 2020 22:36
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM
>>>>
>>>> *****
>>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>>>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
>> posting.
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal (around
>> 600K
>>>> Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and ease
>> of
>>>> use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two
>>>> candidates
>>>> are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
>>>> I would appreciate if someone in the list can share
>>>> experiences/opinions
>>>> with these scopes.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>

Cammer, Michael

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Make sure the quote says Windows 10.
Cheers-
Michael Cammer

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steffen Dietzel
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 11:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

[EXTERNAL]

*****
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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=nGRHLQjcMv9n8p9KctuPm6HsMCLyKDDc6fKn4GdoIIQ&e= and include the link in your posting.
*****

My thoughts exactly. Apart from the Hardware specialties which may or may not be interesting for you (such as gated detection or even included FLIM with the Leica WLL and other stuff that has been mentioned by others), your own experience with your samples on the system and the experience of others with the local service situation should be considered.

I would recommend to also get a quote for a maintenance contract for the years 2-5 (assuming warranty is 12 month), just to know what you will have to face. Make sure all lasers are included.

Steffen

Am 20.01.2020 um 18:54 schrieb Craig Brideau:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-
> 2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeEl
> Zfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7
> v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=FhmCRSksKLIjGzBARostmG-ibb
> DL2YcGBtLhAWLWPiA&e= Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=nGRHLQjcMv9n8p9KctuPm6HsMCLyKDDc6fKn4GdoIIQ&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> As always, who has the better service in your area? Do you see your
> Zeiss rep or your Leica rep around more frequently? How do users in
> your area rate their Zeiss/Leica service? How long does it take for a
> service representative to arrive after a call? For the long haul, this
> will probably be the most important aspect of your purchase.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:00 AM George McNamara
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi
>> -2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48Dtsede
>> ElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m
>> =L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=FhmCRSksKLIjGzBARostmG
>> -ibbDL2YcGBtLhAWLWPiA&e= Post images on
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=nGRHLQjcMv9n8p9KctuPm6HsMCLyKDDc6fKn4GdoIIQ&e= and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> I already posted about our Leica SP8 (two basic SP8's can fit in the
>> thread's ~600K Euro budget).
>>
>> We also have an Olympus FV3000RS with 3 silicone oil immersion lenses
>> (HP Z440 now 10 Gbe Ethernet and ASUS Hyper M.2 PCIe x16 (gen 3) +
>> four 1TB NVMe cards ... 1.05 Gigabytes/sec transfer to our server):
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__confocal.jhu.edu_
>> current-2Dequipment_fv3000_&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04r
>> x3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3Yam
>> GnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=a5PMs5vXIrlp9teK5DRAmKAGFeOHO-
>> Ha3ALJVpr4ceY&e=
>>
>> NIH S10 grant $442K -- thanks again to NIH, reviewers and U.S.
>> taxpayers) + $60K trade in credit for our obsolete Zeiss LSM510META
>> scanhead.
>>
>> Both our Leica SP8 and Olympus FV3000RS are currently heavily used.
>>
>> **
>>
>> Our SP8 was purchased on a lease to buy ... an interesting approach
>> COULD be to negotiate hard, get the microscope(s) equipped with what
>> the user needs, and if over budget, compute, based on user fees,
>> whether a lease-to-buy could cover the rest of the purchase. Probably
>> simpler to paraphrase the Rolling Stones, "get what you need" now and
>> "add what you want" later.
>>
>> happy 2020,
>>
>> George
>>
>> On 1/20/2020 11:13 AM, PAVAK SHAH wrote:
>>> *****
>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cg
>>> i-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48Dtse
>>> deElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5b
>>> U&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=FhmCRSksKLIjGzBARo
>>> stmG-ibbDL2YcGBtLhAWLWPiA&e= Post images on
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=
>>> DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDi
>>> PlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPM
>>> KPLt8sIM&s=nGRHLQjcMv9n8p9KctuPm6HsMCLyKDDc6fKn4GdoIIQ&e= and
>>> include the link in your
>> posting.
>>> *****
>>>
>>> Are you a cat person or a dog person? I prefer fish.
>>>
>>> The only way to decide something like this is to prep some
>>> challenging samples you plan to work with, spend some hands on time
>>> with each instrument, test a variety of objectives from each vendor,
>>> and make sure their software meets your needs. Also, talk to your
>>> neighbors- which
>> vendor
>>> provides better and faster support and service in your area?
>>>
>>> Not sure the bells and whistles options will fit in the budget, but
>>> Leica has the white light laser for spectral flexibility and the DLS
>>> lightsheet add on, Zeiss has airyscan for resolution and sectioning
>>> improvements,
>> and
>>> neither has good silicone oil objectives.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Pavak
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, 6:37 AM Csucs Gabor
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *****
>>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_c
>>>> gi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48Dt
>>>> sedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0Rkn
>>>> E5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=FhmCRSksKLIjGz
>>>> BARostmG-ibbDL2YcGBtLhAWLWPiA&e= Post images on
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d
>>>> =DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUb
>>>> DiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6I
>>>> YPMKPLt8sIM&s=nGRHLQjcMv9n8p9KctuPm6HsMCLyKDDc6fKn4GdoIIQ&e= and
>>>> include the link in your
>> posting.
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> This could be an almost endless discussion. Just for the completeness:
>> not
>>>> so long ago we have tested both an SP8 and an LSM880-Airy scan
>>>> (which
>> we by
>>>> the way have in our facility). At the end we have decided for an
>>>> Olympus FV3000.... :-)
>>>>
>>>> Greetings Gabor
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Confocal Microscopy List
>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]
>> ]
>>>> On Behalf Of Pedro Camello
>>>> Sent: Sunday, 19 January 2020 22:36
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM
>>>>
>>>> *****
>>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_c
>>>> gi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48Dt
>>>> sedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0Rkn
>>>> E5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=FhmCRSksKLIjGz
>>>> BARostmG-ibbDL2YcGBtLhAWLWPiA&e= Post images on
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d
>>>> =DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUb
>>>> DiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6I
>>>> YPMKPLt8sIM&s=nGRHLQjcMv9n8p9KctuPm6HsMCLyKDDc6fKn4GdoIIQ&e= and
>>>> include the link in your
>> posting.
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I´m helping a colleague in the acquisition of a new confocal
>>>> (around
>> 600K
>>>> Euros budget). He wants an "all terrain" scope, with stability and
>>>> ease
>> of
>>>> use as first condition and high resolution as second. The two
>>>> candidates are Leika SP8 and Zeiss 980LSM.
>>>> I would appreciate if someone in the list can share
>>>> experiences/opinions with these scopes.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>

--
------------------------------------------------------------
Steffen Dietzel, PD Dr. rer. nat
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Biomedical Center (BMC)
Head of the Core Facility Bioimaging

Großhaderner Straße 9
D-82152 Planegg-Martinsried
Germany

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.bioimaging.bmc.med.uni-2Dmuenchen.de&d=DwIDaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=L7v3YamGnPH-BTKcL6Hsz2B6LS9vMG6IYPMKPLt8sIM&s=XkSOkVI44aDvNDtw6QKuTEpElTkR5_DEPHI_Se8d8nY&e=

Craig Brideau

Re: Advise SP8 vs Zeiss 980LSM

Good point! If the vendor is selling you discounted 'demo' hardware it is
probably running Windows 7, which will cause all manner of IT headaches.
There are probably a number of systems still in inventory that would need
to be upgraded. This will likely be an issue for the next few months until
everything is converted over to Win 10.

Craig