Best parameters for optical slicing

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Pedro Camello Pedro Camello
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Best parameters for optical slicing

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I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m using a
Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable images
with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
Biorad with this objective).

My 2  questions are:

1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this objective) I get
pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type (pancreatic
acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm diameter
(similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my intend is
to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-cubic
voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
visualization and volume measurements?

2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and measurements, is it
essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?

Thanks in advance

--
Dr Pedro J Camello
Dpt Physiology
Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
University of Extremadura
10071 Caceres
Spain
Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
Fax:927257110
Julio Vazquez Julio Vazquez
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

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Hi Pedro, 

I am not sure how you or Biorad are calculating the optimal pixel sizes, or what the specific constraints for the Biorad 1024 are. For a 60x/1.4NA objective, the theoretical resolution in x/y at 580 nm (if you are using a red mito tracker) is around 200 microns (I am using the formula d = 0.5 x lambda/ NA). Therefore, your optimal pixel size, if you use a Nyquist factor of 2.5,  should be around 80 microns. Obviously, you may get slightly different values depending on how your choice of wavelength.

Regarding the sampling along the z axis, it is not so much the dimensions of the structures (mitochondria) that matter, but the optical properties of your scope. The axial resolution is about half the x/y resolution, and therefore 160 micron spacing between sections would be about optimal.  If you are trying to look at very fine structures, oversampling a little (both in x, y, and z) may not be a bad idea, as long as your sample can take it and doesn't bleach...  

I don't think it as an issue that your x/y pixel dimensions are different from your z section spacing. The PSF itself is not spherically symmetrical (but elongated along z) and your sampling along x/y and z should be set accordingly. Secondly, when you load your images into whatever program you use for doing the 3-D measurements, the image should be calibrated to reflect the actual x,y and z dimensions. As long as you used Nyquist sampling, and you have good signal-to-noise, you should be able to get accurate measurements.

For deconvolution, we've had good results with both measured PSF and calculated PSFs; blind should work fine too, but I haven't tried. If you have some reference beads, you could image them under conditions similar to those used to image your sample, deconvolve them with the same method, and do some measurements. That should give you an idea of how well your deconvolution alrgorithm is performing. If it doesn't look good, you can always re-deconvolve your data with a different method.



Julio.


--
Julio Vazquez, PhD
Director of Scientific Imaging
Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center
1100 Fairview Ave. N.,  mailstop DE-512
Seattle, WA 98109-1024

Tel: Office: 206-667-1215/ Lab: 206-667-4205
FAX: 206-667-6845


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On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Pedro J Camello wrote:

Search the CONFOCAL archive at

I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m using a
Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable images
with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
Biorad with this objective).

My 2  questions are:

1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this objective) I get
pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type (pancreatic
acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm diameter
(similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my intend is
to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-cubic
voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
visualization and volume measurements?

2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and measurements, is it
essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?

Thanks in advance

-- 
Dr Pedro J Camello
Dpt Physiology
Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
University of Extremadura
10071 Caceres
Spain
Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
Fax:927257110

Zoltan Zoltan
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

Search the CONFOCAL archive at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
Hello All,
 
To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not micrometers, when talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel size at 80 nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
 
Zoltan
 
 
On 2/9/08, Julio Vazquez <[hidden email]> wrote:
Search the CONFOCAL archive at <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal" target="_blank">http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
=
Hi Pedro, 

 
I am not sure how you or Biorad are calculating the optimal pixel sizes, or what the specific constraints for the Biorad 1024 are. For a 60x/1.4NA objective, the theoretical resolution in x/y at 580 nm (if you are using a red mito tracker) is around 200 microns (I am using the formula d = 0.5 x lambda/ NA). Therefore, your optimal pixel size, if you use a Nyquist factor of 2.5,  should be around 80 microns. Obviously, you may get slightly different values depending on how your choice of wavelength.

 
Regarding the sampling along the z axis, it is not so much the dimensions of the structures (mitochondria) that matter, but the optical properties of your scope. The axial resolution is about half the x/y resolution, and therefore 160 micron spacing between sections would be about optimal.  If you are trying to look at very fine structures, oversampling a little (both in x, y, and z) may not be a bad idea, as long as your sample can take it and doesn't bleach...  

 
I don't think it as an issue that your x/y pixel dimensions are different from your z section spacing. The PSF itself is not spherically symmetrical (but elongated along z) and your sampling along x/y and z should be set accordingly. Secondly, when you load your images into whatever program you use for doing the 3-D measurements, the image should be calibrated to reflect the actual x,y and z dimensions. As long as you used Nyquist sampling, and you have good signal-to-noise, you should be able to get accurate measurements.

 
For deconvolution, we've had good results with both measured PSF and calculated PSFs; blind should work fine too, but I haven't tried. If you have some reference beads, you could image them under conditions similar to those used to image your sample, deconvolve them with the same method, and do some measurements. That should give you an idea of how well your deconvolution alrgorithm is performing. If it doesn't look good, you can always re-deconvolve your data with a different method.

 

 

 
Julio.

 

--
Julio Vazquez, PhD
Director of Scientific Imaging
Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center
1100 Fairview Ave. N.,  mailstop DE-512
Seattle, WA 98109-1024

 
Tel: Office: 206-667-1215/ Lab: 206-667-4205
FAX: 206-667-6845

 
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.fhcrc.org/science/shared_resources/imaging/" target="_blank">http://www.fhcrc.org/science/shared_resources/imaging/

 

--------------------------------------------------
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On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Pedro J Camello wrote:

Search the CONFOCAL archive at
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal" target="_blank">http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

 
I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m using a
Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable images
with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
Biorad with this objective).

 
My 2  questions are:

 
1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this objective) I get
pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type (pancreatic
acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm diameter
(similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my intend is
to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-cubic
voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
visualization and volume measurements?

 
2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and measurements, is it
essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?

 
Thanks in advance

 
-- 
Dr Pedro J Camello
Dpt Physiology
Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
University of Extremadura
10071 Caceres
Spain
Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
Fax:927257110




--
--
Zoltan Cseresnyes
Facility manager, Imaging Suite
Dept. of Zoology University of Cambridge
Downing Street, Cambridge
CB2 3EJ    UK

Tel.: (++44) (0)1223 769282
Fax.: (++44) (0)1223 336676
Julio Vazquez Julio Vazquez
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

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Yes, nanometers, of course.... my apologies. 

Julio.
Pedro Camello Pedro Camello
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

In reply to this post by Zoltan
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Yes, nm.

Julio, you are right about lateral resolution. My reasoning is that
although the optical performance does not depend on the structure, 150 nm
is supposed to be good enough to sample structures of 500 nm. I would like
to avoid too much oversampling.

I don´t know how Biorad calculated that 2.6 zoom is the maximum advisable
for this objective (it is a shame, but I never worried before about
sampling rate, resolution, etc)

Many thanks for your help.

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Hello All,
>
> To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not micrometers, when
> talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
> E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel size at
> 80
> nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
>
> Zoltan
>
>
> On 2/9/08, Julio Vazquez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal = Hi Pedro,
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how you or Biorad are calculating the optimal pixel sizes,
>> or what the specific constraints for the Biorad 1024 are. For a
>> 60x/1.4NA
>> objective, the theoretical resolution in x/y at 580 nm (if you are using
>> a
>> red mito tracker) is around 200 microns (I am using the formula d = 0.5
>> x
>> lambda/ NA). Therefore, your optimal pixel size, if you use a Nyquist
>> factor
>> of 2.5,  should be around 80 microns. Obviously, you may get slightly
>> different values depending on how your choice of wavelength.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the sampling along the z axis, it is not so much the
>> dimensions
>> of the structures (mitochondria) that matter, but the optical properties
>> of
>> your scope. The axial resolution is about half the x/y resolution, and
>> therefore 160 micron spacing between sections would be about optimal.
>> If
>> you are trying to look at very fine structures, oversampling a little
>> (both
>> in x, y, and z) may not be a bad idea, as long as your sample can take
>> it
>> and doesn't bleach...
>>
>>
>> I don't think it as an issue that your x/y pixel dimensions are
>> different
>> from your z section spacing. The PSF itself is not spherically
>> symmetrical
>> (but elongated along z) and your sampling along x/y and z should be set
>> accordingly. Secondly, when you load your images into whatever program
>> you
>> use for doing the 3-D measurements, the image should be calibrated to
>> reflect the actual x,y and z dimensions. As long as you used Nyquist
>> sampling, and you have good signal-to-noise, you should be able to get
>> accurate measurements.
>>
>>
>> For deconvolution, we've had good results with both measured PSF and
>> calculated PSFs; blind should work fine too, but I haven't tried. If you
>> have some reference beads, you could image them under conditions similar
>> to
>> those used to image your sample, deconvolve them with the same method,
>> and
>> do some measurements. That should give you an idea of how well your
>> deconvolution alrgorithm is performing. If it doesn't look good, you can
>> always re-deconvolve your data with a different method.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Julio.
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Julio Vazquez, PhD
>> Director of Scientific Imaging
>> Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center
>> 1100 Fairview Ave. N.,  mailstop DE-512
>> Seattle, WA 98109-1024
>>
>>
>> Tel: Office: 206-667-1215/ Lab: 206-667-4205
>> FAX: 206-667-6845
>>
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.fhcrc.org/science/shared_resources/imaging/
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> *DISCLAIMER:*
>>
>> This message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s)
>> and
>> may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure
>> under
>> applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are
>> notified
>> that the dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is
>> strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please
>> notify
>> the sender then delete this message.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Pedro J Camello wrote:
>>
>>  Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>
>>
>> I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m using a
>> Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable images
>> with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
>> Biorad with this objective).
>>
>>
>> My 2  questions are:
>>
>>
>> 1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this objective) I
>> get
>> pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type (pancreatic
>> acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm diameter
>> (similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my intend
>> is
>> to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-cubic
>> voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
>> visualization and volume measurements?
>>
>>
>> 2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and measurements, is
>> it
>> essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Pedro J Camello
>> Dpt Physiology
>> Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
>> University of Extremadura
>> 10071 Caceres
>> Spain
>> Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
>> Fax:927257110
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Zoltan Cseresnyes
> Facility manager, Imaging Suite
> Dept. of Zoology University of Cambridge
> Downing Street, Cambridge
> CB2 3EJ    UK
>
> Tel.: (++44) (0)1223 769282
> Fax.: (++44) (0)1223 336676
>


--
Dr Pedro J Camello
Dpt Physiology
Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
University of Extremadura
10071 Caceres
Spain
Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321
Fax:927257110
Zoltan Zoltan
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

Search the CONFOCAL archive at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
The 2.6 x   max zoom for a 63x immersion lens sounds about right, beyond this you would only get "empty" resolution increase, but real increase in photodamage.  If you want to severely oversample, e.g. while studying very fine structures  combined with post-processing algorithms (reconstructing, e.g.), then up to 5 x might be considered in my opinion.
 
Zoltan 

 
On 2/9/08, Pedro J Camello <[hidden email]> wrote:
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Yes, nm.

Julio, you are right about lateral resolution. My reasoning is that
although the optical performance does not depend on the structure, 150 nm
is supposed to be good enough to sample structures of 500 nm. I would like
to avoid too much oversampling.

I don´t know how Biorad calculated that 2.6 zoom is the maximum advisable
for this objective (it is a shame, but I never worried before about
sampling rate, resolution, etc)

Many thanks for your help.

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Hello All,
>
> To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not micrometers, when
> talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
> E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel size at
> 80
> nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
>
> Zoltan
>
>
> On 2/9/08, Julio Vazquez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal = Hi Pedro,
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how you or Biorad are calculating the optimal pixel sizes,
>> or what the specific constraints for the Biorad 1024 are. For a
>> 60x/1.4NA
>> objective, the theoretical resolution in x/y at 580 nm (if you are using
>> a
>> red mito tracker) is around 200 microns (I am using the formula d = 0.5
>> x
>> lambda/ NA). Therefore, your optimal pixel size, if you use a Nyquist
>> factor
>> of 2.5,  should be around 80 microns. Obviously, you may get slightly
>> different values depending on how your choice of wavelength.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the sampling along the z axis, it is not so much the
>> dimensions
>> of the structures (mitochondria) that matter, but the optical properties
>> of
>> your scope. The axial resolution is about half the x/y resolution, and
>> therefore 160 micron spacing between sections would be about optimal.
>> If
>> you are trying to look at very fine structures, oversampling a little
>> (both
>> in x, y, and z) may not be a bad idea, as long as your sample can take
>> it
>> and doesn't bleach...
>>
>>
>> I don't think it as an issue that your x/y pixel dimensions are
>> different
>> from your z section spacing. The PSF itself is not spherically
>> symmetrical
>> (but elongated along z) and your sampling along x/y and z should be set
>> accordingly. Secondly, when you load your images into whatever program
>> you
>> use for doing the 3-D measurements, the image should be calibrated to
>> reflect the actual x,y and z dimensions. As long as you used Nyquist
>> sampling, and you have good signal-to-noise, you should be able to get
>> accurate measurements.
>>
>>
>> For deconvolution, we've had good results with both measured PSF and
>> calculated PSFs; blind should work fine too, but I haven't tried. If you
>> have some reference beads, you could image them under conditions similar
>> to
>> those used to image your sample, deconvolve them with the same method,
>> and
>> do some measurements. That should give you an idea of how well your
>> deconvolution alrgorithm is performing. If it doesn't look good, you can
>> always re-deconvolve your data with a different method.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Julio.
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Julio Vazquez, PhD
>> Director of Scientific Imaging
>> Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center
>> 1100 Fairview Ave. N.,  mailstop DE-512
>> Seattle, WA 98109-1024
>>
>>
>> Tel: Office: 206-667-1215/ Lab: 206-667-4205
>> FAX: 206-667-6845
>>
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.fhcrc.org/science/shared_resources/imaging/
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> *DISCLAIMER:*
>>
>> This message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s)
>> and
>> may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure
>> under
>> applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are
>> notified
>> that the dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is
>> strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please
>> notify

>> the sender then delete this message.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Pedro J Camello wrote:
>>
>>  Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>
>>
>> I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m using a
>> Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable images
>> with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
>> Biorad with this objective).
>>
>>
>> My 2  questions are:
>>
>>
>> 1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this objective) I
>> get
>> pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type (pancreatic
>> acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm diameter
>> (similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my intend
>> is
>> to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-cubic
>> voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
>> visualization and volume measurements?
>>
>>
>> 2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and measurements, is
>> it
>> essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Pedro J Camello
>> Dpt Physiology
>> Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
>> University of Extremadura
>> 10071 Caceres
>> Spain
>> Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
>> Fax:927257110
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Zoltan Cseresnyes
> Facility manager, Imaging Suite
> Dept. of Zoology University of Cambridge
> Downing Street, Cambridge
> CB2 3EJ    UK
>
> Tel.: (++44) (0)1223 769282
> Fax.: (++44) (0)1223 336676
>


--
Dr Pedro J Camello
Dpt Physiology
Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
University of Extremadura
10071 Caceres
Spain
Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321
Fax:927257110



--
--
Zoltan Cseresnyes
Facility manager, Imaging Suite
Dept. of Zoology University of Cambridge
Downing Street, Cambridge
CB2 3EJ    UK

Tel.: (++44) (0)1223 769282
Fax.: (++44) (0)1223 336676
M. van de corput M. van de corput
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

In reply to this post by Julio Vazquez
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Julio Vazquez wrote:
> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal =
>
> Yes, nanometers, of course.... my apologies.
>
> Julio.
I would not use blind deconvolution. When your system has an
asymmetrical PSF (mostly due to RI mismatches) blind deconvolution can
create artifacts that might look like mitochondria (fusion of signals
into linear structures). So image a 100nm or 200nm bead and use that for
deconvolution.

Mariette
Paul Rigby Paul Rigby
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

In reply to this post by Pedro Camello
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Hi Pedro,
On our Biorad 1024UV system, using the Nikon 60x NA1.4 PlanApo objective, the final pixel size is 310nm x 310nm. Assuming optimal pixel size of 80nm for Nyquist sampling to resolve 200nm in x,y then the maximum "useful" zoom is 310/80 = 3.8. On different confocal systems the final pixel size could be quite different. I have always understood this is how Biorad calculated their optimal zoom value for that objective.
Cheers
Paul
 
Dr Paul Rigby
Senior Lecturer
Centre for Microscopy, Characterisation and Analysis (M510)
The University of Western Australia
35 Stirling Highway
Crawley  WA  6009


________________________________

From: Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Pedro J Camello
Sent: Sun 10/02/2008 8:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Best parameters for optical slicing



Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Yes, nm.

Julio, you are right about lateral resolution. My reasoning is that
although the optical performance does not depend on the structure, 150 nm
is supposed to be good enough to sample structures of 500 nm. I would like
to avoid too much oversampling.

I don´t know how Biorad calculated that 2.6 zoom is the maximum advisable
for this objective (it is a shame, but I never worried before about
sampling rate, resolution, etc)

Many thanks for your help.

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Hello All,
>
> To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not micrometers, when
> talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
> E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel size at
> 80
> nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
>
> Zoltan
Mayandi Sivaguru Mayandi Sivaguru
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

Search the CONFOCAL archive at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal Pedro, I hope you have got the attachment, if not let me know as the server rejected the post with word document attchment.
Shiv

At 10:35 AM 2/11/2008, Mayandi Sivaguru wrote:
Pedro, if I remember right the Biorad system calculates the optimum resolutions based on the Raleigh criterion based on the standard formulas as mentioned by Julio. But it does not accomodates the Nyquist sampling criteria, at least as far as the Radiance 2000 system, but I imagine the same in the case of 1024. Here I have a attached a table compiled with optimum, xy resolution, Z resolution, pixel sizes and zoom levels for Olympus Objectives for two different resolution settings 512x512 and three different excitation lambdas. The most commonly used objectives are highlighted. As you know the you cannot zoom the system electronically indefinitely beyond the resolving power (resolution in XY) of the objective, as this will yield empty magnification. I would suggest you try to use far field optical techniques such as STORM, STED (Stimulated emission depletion) or structured illumination coupled with linear deconcolution to resolve structures less than the diffraction limit i.e., lower than 200 nm in xy.  

I have copied the mail directly to you incase the server rejects the attachment.

Let me know if you have any questions
Shiv
 



At 07:38 AM 2/11/2008, you wrote:
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Hi Pedro,
On our Biorad 1024UV system, using the Nikon 60x NA1.4 PlanApo objective, the final pixel size is 310nm x 310nm. Assuming optimal pixel size of 80nm for Nyquist sampling to resolve 200nm in x,y then the maximum "useful" zoom is 310/80 = 3.8. On different confocal systems the final pixel size could be quite different. I have always understood this is how Biorad calculated their optimal zoom value for that objective.
Cheers
Paul
 
Dr Paul Rigby
Senior Lecturer
Centre for Microscopy, Characterisation and Analysis (M510)
The University of Western Australia
35 Stirling Highway
Crawley  WA  6009


________________________________

From: Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Pedro J Camello
Sent: Sun 10/02/2008 8:30 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Best parameters for optical slicing



Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Yes, nm.

Julio, you are right about lateral resolution. My reasoning is that
although the optical performance does not depend on the structure, 150 nm
is supposed to be good enough to sample structures of 500 nm. I would like
to avoid too much oversampling.

I don´t know how Biorad calculated that 2.6 zoom is the maximum advisable
for this objective (it is a shame, but I never worried before about
sampling rate, resolution, etc)

Many thanks for your help.

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Hello All,
>
> To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not micrometers, when
> talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
> E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel size at
> 80
> nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
>
> Zoltan

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Subject: Re: Best parameters for optical slicing
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Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Yes, nm.

Julio, you are right about lateral resolution. My reasoning is that
although the optical performance does not depend on the structure, 150 nm
is supposed to be good enough to sample structures of 500 nm. I would like
to avoid too much oversampling.

I don´t know how Biorad calculated that 2.6 zoom is the maximum advisable
for this objective (it is a shame, but I never worried before about
sampling rate, resolution, etc)

Many thanks for your help.

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Hello All,
>
> To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not micrometers, when
> talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
> E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel size at
> 80
> nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
>
> Zoltan
>
>
> On 2/9/08, Julio Vazquez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal = Hi Pedro,
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how you or Biorad are calculating the optimal pixel sizes,
>> or what the specific constraints for the Biorad 1024 are. For a
>> 60x/1.4NA
>> objective, the theoretical resolution in x/y at 580 nm (if you are using
>> a
>> red mito tracker) is around 200 microns (I am using the formula d = 0.5
>> x
>> lambda/ NA). Therefore, your optimal pixel size, if you use a Nyquist
>> factor
>> of 2.5,  should be around 80 microns. Obviously, you may get slightly
>> different values depending on how your choice of wavelength.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the sampling along the z axis, it is not so much the
>> dimensions
>> of the structures (mitochondria) that matter, but the optical properties
>> of
>> your scope. The axial resolution is about half the x/y resolution, and
>> therefore 160 micron spacing between sections would be about optimal.
>> If
>> you are trying to look at very fine structures, oversampling a little
>> (both
>> in x, y, and z) may not be a bad idea, as long as your sample can take
>> it
>> and doesn't bleach...
>>
>>
>> I don't think it as an issue that your x/y pixel dimensions are
>> different
>> from your z section spacing. The PSF itself is not spherically
>> symmetrical
>> (but elongated along z) and your sampling along x/y and z should be set
>> accordingly. Secondly, when you load your images into whatever program
>> you
>> use for doing the 3-D measurements, the image should be calibrated to
>> reflect the actual x,y and z dimensions. As long as you used Nyquist
>> sampling, and you have good signal-to-noise, you should be able to get
>> accurate measurements.
>>
>>
>> For deconvolution, we've had good results with both measured PSF and
>> calculated PSFs; blind should work fine too, but I haven't tried. If you
>> have some reference beads, you could image them under conditions similar
>> to
>> those used to image your sample, deconvolve them with the same method,
>> and
>> do some measurements. That should give you an idea of how well your
>> deconvolution alrgorithm is performing. If it doesn't look good, you can
>> always re-deconvolve your data with a different method.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Julio.
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Julio Vazquez, PhD
>> Director of Scientific Imaging
>> Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center
>> 1100 Fairview Ave. N.,  mailstop DE-512
>> Seattle, WA 98109-1024
>>
>>
>> Tel: Office: 206-667-1215/ Lab: 206-667-4205
>> FAX: 206-667-6845
>>
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.fhcrc.org/science/shared_resources/imaging/
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> *DISCLAIMER:*
>>
>> This message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s)
>> and
>> may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure
>> under
>> applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are
>> notified
>> that the dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is
>> strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please
>> notify
>> the sender then delete this message.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Pedro J Camello wrote:
>>
>>  Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>
>>
>> I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m using a
>> Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable images
>> with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
>> Biorad with this objective).
>>
>>
>> My 2  questions are:
>>
>>
>> 1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this objective) I
>> get
>> pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type (pancreatic
>> acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm diameter
>> (similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my intend
>> is
>> to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-cubic
>> voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
>> visualization and volume measurements?
>>
>>
>> 2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and measurements, is
>> it
>> essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr Pedro J Camello
>> Dpt Physiology
>> Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
>> University of Extremadura
>> 10071 Caceres
>> Spain
>> Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
>> Fax:927257110
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Zoltan Cseresnyes
> Facility manager, Imaging Suite
> Dept. of Zoology University of Cambridge
> Downing Street, Cambridge
> CB2 3EJ    UK
>
> Tel.: (++44) (0)1223 769282
> Fax.: (++44) (0)1223 336676
>


--
Dr Pedro J Camello
Dpt Physiology
Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
University of Extremadura
10071 Caceres
Spain
Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321
Fax:927257110



Mayandi Sivaguru, PhD, PhD
Microscopy Facility Manager
8, Institute for Genomic Biology
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1206 West Gregory Dr.
Urbana, IL 61801 USA

Office: 217.333.1214
Fax: 217.244.2496
[hidden email]
http://core.igb.uiuc.edu

Mayandi Sivaguru, PhD, PhD
Microscopy Facility Manager
8, Institute for Genomic Biology
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
1206 West Gregory Dr.
Urbana, IL 61801 USA

Office: 217.333.1214
Fax: 217.244.2496
[hidden email]
http://core.igb.uiuc.edu

Glen MacDonald-2 Glen MacDonald-2
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

In reply to this post by Pedro Camello
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

The pinhole diameter is based upon the the diameter of the Airy disk  
at the detector.  The usual definition of optimal pinhole diameter is  
that the confocal aperture is set to the outside edge of the first  
dark ring of the Airy disk.  This diameter depends upon the  
Magnification, emission wavelength and distance between the back  
focal plane of the objective and the detector.  The table in your  
1024 manual has converted measurements in optical units to mm of  
pinhole diameter.  The 1.3 meter folded optical path in the scanhead  
allowed these systems to avoid the issues of pinhole alignment that  
plagued other instruments of that era.  The table assumes you are  
using a Nikon 160 mm tube length microscope, such as a Diaphot.  
Notice that the equation gives two examples, a standard brightfield  
scope or with addition of fluorescence and DIC.  If you only have epi-
fluorescence on your scope, and no DIC, then use assume an total mag  
of 63 times lens mag and use the average of the 2 values given in the  
table for your lens.

Nyquist sampling at 2.3 times the object frequency is adequate for  
detection, but to resolve the point to point Rayleigh resolution, you  
need to double it again to 4.6X the object frequency, especially if  
deconvolving.

Regards,

glen
Glen MacDonald
Core for Communication Research
Virginia Merrill Bloedel Hearing Research Center
Box 357923
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195-7923  USA
(206) 616-4156
[hidden email]

************************************************************************
******
The box said "Requires WindowsXP or better", so I bought a Macintosh.
************************************************************************
******


On Feb 9, 2008, at 3:30 PM, Pedro J Camello wrote:

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Yes, nm.
>
> Julio, you are right about lateral resolution. My reasoning is that
> although the optical performance does not depend on the structure,  
> 150 nm
> is supposed to be good enough to sample structures of 500 nm. I  
> would like
> to avoid too much oversampling.
>
> I don´t know how Biorad calculated that 2.6 zoom is the maximum  
> advisable
> for this objective (it is a shame, but I never worried before about
> sampling rate, resolution, etc)
>
> Many thanks for your help.
>
>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> To avoid more confusion, you both meant nanometers, not  
>> micrometers, when
>> talking about xy-, z-resolution and z-stepsize, correct?
>> E.g., "optimal" xy resolution is 200 nm, not microns, with pixel  
>> size at
>> 80
>> nm with Nyquist, 160 nm z-stepsize, etc.
>>
>> Zoltan
>>
>>
>> On 2/9/08, Julio Vazquez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal = Hi Pedro,
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure how you or Biorad are calculating the optimal pixel  
>>> sizes,
>>> or what the specific constraints for the Biorad 1024 are. For a
>>> 60x/1.4NA
>>> objective, the theoretical resolution in x/y at 580 nm (if you  
>>> are using
>>> a
>>> red mito tracker) is around 200 microns (I am using the formula d  
>>> = 0.5
>>> x
>>> lambda/ NA). Therefore, your optimal pixel size, if you use a  
>>> Nyquist
>>> factor
>>> of 2.5,  should be around 80 microns. Obviously, you may get  
>>> slightly
>>> different values depending on how your choice of wavelength.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding the sampling along the z axis, it is not so much the
>>> dimensions
>>> of the structures (mitochondria) that matter, but the optical  
>>> properties
>>> of
>>> your scope. The axial resolution is about half the x/y  
>>> resolution, and
>>> therefore 160 micron spacing between sections would be about  
>>> optimal.
>>> If
>>> you are trying to look at very fine structures, oversampling a  
>>> little
>>> (both
>>> in x, y, and z) may not be a bad idea, as long as your sample can  
>>> take
>>> it
>>> and doesn't bleach...
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think it as an issue that your x/y pixel dimensions are
>>> different
>>> from your z section spacing. The PSF itself is not spherically
>>> symmetrical
>>> (but elongated along z) and your sampling along x/y and z should  
>>> be set
>>> accordingly. Secondly, when you load your images into whatever  
>>> program
>>> you
>>> use for doing the 3-D measurements, the image should be  
>>> calibrated to
>>> reflect the actual x,y and z dimensions. As long as you used Nyquist
>>> sampling, and you have good signal-to-noise, you should be able  
>>> to get
>>> accurate measurements.
>>>
>>>
>>> For deconvolution, we've had good results with both measured PSF and
>>> calculated PSFs; blind should work fine too, but I haven't tried.  
>>> If you
>>> have some reference beads, you could image them under conditions  
>>> similar
>>> to
>>> those used to image your sample, deconvolve them with the same  
>>> method,
>>> and
>>> do some measurements. That should give you an idea of how well your
>>> deconvolution alrgorithm is performing. If it doesn't look good,  
>>> you can
>>> always re-deconvolve your data with a different method.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Julio.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> Julio Vazquez, PhD
>>> Director of Scientific Imaging
>>> Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center
>>> 1100 Fairview Ave. N.,  mailstop DE-512
>>> Seattle, WA 98109-1024
>>>
>>>
>>> Tel: Office: 206-667-1215/ Lab: 206-667-4205
>>> FAX: 206-667-6845
>>>
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://www.fhcrc.org/science/shared_resources/imaging/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> *DISCLAIMER:*
>>>
>>> This message is confidential, intended only for the named  
>>> recipient(s)
>>> and
>>> may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure
>>> under
>>> applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are
>>> notified
>>> that the dissemination, distribution or copying of this  
>>> information is
>>> strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please
>>> notify
>>> the sender then delete this message.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Pedro J Camello wrote:
>>>
>>>  Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>>
>>>
>>> I´m trying to image a 3D map of mitotracker-stained cells. I´m  
>>> using a
>>> Biorad 1024, 60x, NA 1.4. My first attempts generated acceptable  
>>> images
>>> with iris 1.6 -2 (close to the theoretical optimal iris indicated by
>>> Biorad with this objective).
>>>
>>>
>>> My 2  questions are:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) Using zoom 2.6 (the theoretical optimum zoom for this  
>>> objective) I
>>> get
>>> pixel size 166 µm. Since published images with my cell type  
>>> (pancreatic
>>> acini) indicate that most of the mitochondria are around 500 nm  
>>> diameter
>>> (similar to the measured resolution of mi micro with iris 2) my  
>>> intend
>>> is
>>> to sample at 150 nm to meet Nyquist. However, this creates a non-
>>> cubic
>>> voxel (166x166x150). Will be this a problem to make posterior 3D
>>> visualization and volume measurements?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) If I need deconvolution to posterior processing and  
>>> measurements, is
>>> it
>>> essential PSF measurements or will blinded methods be enough?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr Pedro J Camello
>>> Dpt Physiology
>>> Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
>>> University of Extremadura
>>> 10071 Caceres
>>> Spain
>>> Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321/1290
>>> Fax:927257110
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Zoltan Cseresnyes
>> Facility manager, Imaging Suite
>> Dept. of Zoology University of Cambridge
>> Downing Street, Cambridge
>> CB2 3EJ    UK
>>
>> Tel.: (++44) (0)1223 769282
>> Fax.: (++44) (0)1223 336676
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr Pedro J Camello
> Dpt Physiology
> Faculty of Veterinary Sciences
> University of Extremadura
> 10071 Caceres
> Spain
> Ph: 927257100 Extension 1321
> Fax:927257110
Martin Wessendorf-2 Martin Wessendorf-2
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Glen MacDonald wrote:

> Nyquist sampling at 2.3 times the object frequency is adequate for
> detection, but to resolve the point to point Rayleigh resolution, you
> need to double it again to 4.6X the object frequency, especially if
> deconvolving.

I may be wrong on this, but unless they fixed it sometime while my back
was turned, the only "true" zooms possible on a BioRad are 1, 2, 4 and
8x.  Intermediate values requires double-scanning some lines.  Using
such a value can result in artifacts when deconvolving.

Take care!

Martin Wessendorf
--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: (612) 626-0145
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: (612) 624-2991
University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: (612) 624-8118
6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: (612) 626-5009
Minneapolis, MN  55455
**MY E-MAIL ADDRESS HAS CHANGED.  PLEASE USE [hidden email] **
Glen MacDonald-2 Glen MacDonald-2
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Re: Best parameters for optical slicing

Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal

Yes, I forgot about zooming by powers of 2 due to the galvos.  There  
should be a thread in the archives on that.
Our 1024 was mothballed for about 2 years and I just got it going  
again.  I've got much recall, or mistakes to repeat, on that system.

Regards
Glen
On Feb 11, 2008, at 9:50 AM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:

> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>
> Glen MacDonald wrote:
>
>> Nyquist sampling at 2.3 times the object frequency is adequate for  
>> detection, but to resolve the point to point Rayleigh resolution,  
>> you need to double it again to 4.6X the object frequency,  
>> especially if deconvolving.
>
> I may be wrong on this, but unless they fixed it sometime while my  
> back was turned, the only "true" zooms possible on a BioRad are 1,  
> 2, 4 and 8x.  Intermediate values requires double-scanning some  
> lines.  Using such a value can result in artifacts when deconvolving.
>
> Take care!
>
> Martin Wessendorf
> --
> Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: (612) 626-0145
> Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: (612) 624-2991
> University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: (612) 624-8118
> 6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: (612) 626-5009
> Minneapolis, MN  55455
> **MY E-MAIL ADDRESS HAS CHANGED.  PLEASE USE [hidden email] **