Core Facility Training Fees

[daj1u06]

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We don't charge for training on our confocal, partly to encourage training and competency so we don't have to machine sit and partly because our instrument fees are set centrally by University policies and are quite a lot higher than many quoted in this thread (70 pounds per hour) - we do a whole day induction, a couple of hours of theory and then several hours on each of our 2 systems (SP5 and SP8) because there are feature, software look and feel and "gotcha" differences between them. We only train 2 individuals at a time, on demand.

We don't expect users to be competent after just that session and we don't let them alone till we are sure that they can set it up correctly for their samples with respect to controls, spectral bleed through and other optimisations. We are not worried about them breaking the instrument but we are worried about them getting dud data.

Unlike others, we never train on user samples, but on our own - a DAPI / FITC / Alexa 555 combo which has problems of multiple bleed throughs, inefficient excitation and rapid signal fading, with incremenrtal setup to sort one issue at a time. We feel that this approach helps users to understand that confocal isn't a black box and that you can go horribly wrong if you don't fully appreciate exactly what controls you have over the system, what they do and why they are important. User samples can wait for a user specific session.

We also run a week long general light microscopy course and only charge internal users 100 pounds for that (run twice yearly), again to encourage knowledge and usage.

Regards,

Dave Johnston, Biomedicxal Imaging Unit,
Southampton.

[Pippa Hawes]

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Dear all

This is a very interesting topic which I've been following closely, thanks everyone!

We do not charge differently for training sessions, it all counts as 'microscope time with support' (which we give continually anyway), but as a research institute we are funded slightly differently with a core grant for support services, however we include charges in externally funded grants.  I do one 2.5 - 3 hour training session, but then make sure users know to ask if they have any queries, and to make sure one of my team is around to help for the first few sessions, if needed.  I strongly suggest users get back on the confocal 'soon' to cement their new knowledge.  And I insist they make notes when we're doing the training!  But we send out documents after the training session too.

I am particularly interested in the fact that you all seem to train individually - I have always done this, I think it is the best way to do it, but there is pressure on me to start training in small groups so that it doesn't take up as much of my time.  I think this will dilute the effectiveness of the training session - group dynamics can influence how people learn, if there is a dominant character then others will try to hide... I like to get verbal/non-verbal feedback to see that they understand what I'm waffling on about!  Does anyone train in small groups currently?

Oh and I insist on trainees' own samples, it is incredibly valuable to be able to troubleshoot their coverslips at stage 1 of their confocal journey (and it puts off the time wasters who just want to learn a new technique and don't actually have any samples).
Best regards
Pippa

Pippa Hawes
Head of Bioimaging
The Pirbright Institute, UK

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon
Sent: 21 August 2018 01:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Core Facility Training Fees

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Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

________________________________

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The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended solely for the addressee. If you have received this message in error please delete it & notify the originator immediately. Unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is forbidden & may be unlawful. The contents of this e-mail are the views of the sender and do not necessarily represent the views of the Institute. This email and associated attachments has been checked locally for viruses but we can accept no responsibility once it has left our systems. Communications on Institute computers are monitored to secure the effective operation of the systems and for other lawful purposes.

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[Cammer, Michael]

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Many times we have tried training in small groups.  With the occasional exception of observers who are extraordinarily facile with computers, only the actual driver during the lesson learns to operate the instrument.
But subsequent lessons for other observers are greatly shortened.
There are occasions where people who say they are expert really are and it is a joy to exchange info with them, but most people who say they are experts to forgo training are misreporting.

________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Pippa Hawes <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 5:03:18 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

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Dear all



This is a very interesting topic which I've been following closely, thanks everyone!



We do not charge differently for training sessions, it all counts as 'microscope time with support' (which we give continually anyway), but as a research institute we are funded slightly differently with a core grant for support services, however we include charges in externally funded grants.  I do one 2.5 - 3 hour training session, but then make sure users know to ask if they have any queries, and to make sure one of my team is around to help for the first few sessions, if needed.  I strongly suggest users get back on the confocal 'soon' to cement their new knowledge.  And I insist they make notes when we're doing the training!  But we send out documents after the training session too.



I am particularly interested in the fact that you all seem to train individually - I have always done this, I think it is the best way to do it, but there is pressure on me to start training in small groups so that it doesn't take up as much of my time.  I think this will dilute the effectiveness of the training session - group dynamics can influence how people learn, if there is a dominant character then others will try to hide... I like to get verbal/non-verbal feedback to see that they understand what I'm waffling on about!  Does anyone train in small groups currently?



Oh and I insist on trainees' own samples, it is incredibly valuable to be able to troubleshoot their coverslips at stage 1 of their confocal journey (and it puts off the time wasters who just want to learn a new technique and don't actually have any samples).

Best regards

Pippa



Pippa Hawes

Head of Bioimaging

The Pirbright Institute, UK



-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon

Sent: 21 August 2018 01:00

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Core Facility Training Fees



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*****



Hi all,



This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.

We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.



In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?



I look forward to your replies!



Kind regards,

Kelvin



________________________________



The Pirbright Institute receives strategic funding from BBSRC.



The information contained in this message may be confidential or legally privileged and is intended solely for the addressee. If you have received this message in error please delete it & notify the originator immediately. Unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is forbidden & may be unlawful. The contents of this e-mail are the views of the sender and do not necessarily represent the views of the Institute. This email and associated attachments has been checked locally for viruses but we can accept no responsibility once it has left our systems. Communications on Institute computers are monitored to secure the effective operation of the systems and for other lawful purposes.



The Pirbright Institute is a company limited by guarantee, registered in England no. 559784. The Institute is also a registered charity.




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[Armstrong, Brian]

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Dave, I like your approach. I find that at my facility users often get annoyed if the training is longer than an hour and I think that peak attention is rarely more than 1 hour long for the initial session. I also only use our own samples because I do not want to spend the time looking for their perfect slide or cell or tissue during the time I would rather be talking about pinholes, PMTs and light paths. We talk about why their staining did not work, what is proper fixation or mounting techniques and proper coverslip thickness etc. on the second session. Users will also often get annoyed if you are bleaching their samples as you expound on different pinhole settings, look-up-tables or line profiles. I think it is best if I mistreat my own samples during the training session instead of the valued user's samples.

I have determined over the years that the only person that really "learns" the software is the person that house the mouse in their hand during training. For this reason I only train one-at-a-time. I also think that the personal interaction is very important because I am always trying to glean if the person I am training understands the lessons such as LASER safety. Given that mother languages are often different I insist on verbal acknowledgement of the key concepts.

Happy Training Everyone,      

Brian Armstrong PhD
Associate Research Professor
Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
Director, Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Johnston
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]





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We don't charge for training on our confocal, partly to encourage training and competency so we don't have to machine sit and partly because our instrument fees are set centrally by University policies and are quite a lot higher than many quoted in this thread (70 pounds per hour) - we do a whole day induction, a couple of hours of theory and then several hours on each of our 2 systems (SP5 and SP8) because there are feature, software look and feel and "gotcha" differences between them. We only train 2 individuals at a time, on demand.

We don't expect users to be competent after just that session and we don't let them alone till we are sure that they can set it up correctly for their samples with respect to controls, spectral bleed through and other optimisations. We are not worried about them breaking the instrument but we are worried about them getting dud data.

Unlike others, we never train on user samples, but on our own - a DAPI / FITC / Alexa 555 combo which has problems of multiple bleed throughs, inefficient excitation and rapid signal fading, with incremenrtal setup to sort one issue at a time. We feel that this approach helps users to understand that confocal isn't a black box and that you can go horribly wrong if you don't fully appreciate exactly what controls you have over the system, what they do and why they are important. User samples can wait for a user specific session.

We also run a week long general light microscopy course and only charge internal users 100 pounds for that (run twice yearly), again to encourage knowledge and usage.

Regards,

Dave Johnston, Biomedicxal Imaging Unit, Southampton.

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[Steffen Dietzel]

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We also do it both ways for confocals: first session with our standard
sample, a) to avoid that the user focuses on the sample instead on the
system and b) some users come with a crappy sample and then blame it on
the microscope. And the second, 'guided session' with the user's sample,
to set up all the instrument parameters for the specific research. That
can be quite challenging for a novice with spectral excitation and
detection in combination with sensitive detectors, time gating etc. We
like to avoid that novice users shoot out the HyD detectors with the
reflection of the excitation beam on the SP8. In a perfect world we
would have a third session, after the users has gained experience of
10-20 hours, to explain more advanced stuff (e.g. changing pinhole size,
deconvolution options, automation options) but there we run into a
manpower problem.

For confocal this approach works well for us since the vast majority of
user samples is reasonably similar (stuff on a slide with coverslip or
comparable). But on multi-photon I start with user samples right away.
First it is difficult to make good permanent samples for a dipping lens
(any suggestions?) and second the variety of sample types is much
larger, so that a general introduction just is not cutting it.

So far we don't charge for user training (except for the normal
instrument fee). We were considering it, since we had a group who would
send users for training to later on use the group's own instrument. We
also have a number of cases who never show up again for instrument
usage. But the first problem we could solve in a discussion. The second
we are still bearing. If we should start to charge for training, we
probably would go for a voucher model, like confocal training costs
maybe €100 - 200 which can be used towards upcoming usage fees of the
same user (only).

As for the original question, Kelvin, the first point here is why do you
charge? Do you need the income? If so you could argue that you could to
trainings for free but then you would have to raise general fees. I
guess most heavy users (and their bosses) would not like that. Or is it
just a matter of principle? If so I can see your point ('free things are
worthless') and I also enjoyed the ballroom example. But I also can
report that I certainly do not have the impression that our users and
their group leaders in general would not value our work. On the
contrary, we get very positive feedback. Value does not necessarily need
a price tag (for most people at least). Having said that, see above, we
also think about charging. I guess it really depends on the local
situation and culture what is best suited.

Steffen


Am 21.08.2018 um 22:51 schrieb Z.J. Zhang:

> *****
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> *****
>
> We always use a standard sample for the first part of the training, but maybe with a different reason.
>
> We found that if we start with users' samples, the users, very often, are being too focused on their samples, rather than the training/operation. Having a very "boring sample" actually helps the training. Before the training, we usually give a 'warning' to the users that this is a "perfect sample" and it is rare that any real-life sample would work like this.
>
> On the second part of the training, we require the user bring their own samples and work with them to optimize the settings. If they don't have their samples ready, we usually ask them to delay the first part of the training.
>
> If users demand real data during training, we would recommend them to start with staff-assisted operation, with an additional hourly charge.
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> Zhaojie Zhang, Ph.D.
> Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
> University of Wyoming
> PHONE: [phone]
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 1:22 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
> *****
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> *****
>
> We disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."
>
> We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we need them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the experimental goals to provide advice for improvement or experimental design improvements.  Also, users demand that they get real data their first session.
>
> It is useless to show a yeast person who wants to do high speed FRAP how to image a fixed fibroblast stained for beta tubulin.
>
> We have commercially prepared or other samples on standby to check the instrument or explain what a good standard immunofluorescent sample should look like if theirs don’t work.
>
> Fees:
>
> Operating the equipment is one fee.
> Training and assistance are additional fees.  Staff are experts who are paid for their knowledge.
>
> Like dance lessons.  You may rent a dance hall.  You may spin and run and jump around in it, but if you want instruction to do a proper tango, then contract with a dancer/teacher in addition.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016 [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained enough to use a Confocal on their own.
>
>
>
> Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire the best images possible.
>
>
>
> My 2 cents. Thanks,
>
>
>
> Brian Armstrong PhD
>
> Associate Research Professor
>
> Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
>
> Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
>
> Director, Light Microscopy Core
>
> Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
>
>
> [Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *****
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>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Terri,
>
>
>
> I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think about anyway.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Pearson
>
> Microscopy Facility
>
> MRC Human Genetics Unit
>
> Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road
>
> EH4 2XU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
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> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Matthew!
>
>
>
> We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!
>
>
>
> So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!
>
>
>
> Terri
>
>
>
> Like us on facebook! https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_ClemsonLightImagingFacility&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=YdLIFwPpIC_F3ZpL20iNIBliZFXktFAd0YVEORkOqEE&e=
>
>
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Pearson
>
> Microscopy Facility
>
> MRC Human Genetics Unit
>
> Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road
>
> EH4 2XU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Kelvin
>
>
>
> we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.
>
>
>
> The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.
>
>
>
> With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs
>
>
>
> Best Ralf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Kelvin!
>
>
>
> We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!
>
>
>
> To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!
>
>
>
> We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!
>
>
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Terri Bruce
>
> Clemson Light Imaging Facility
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
>
> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>
>
>
> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>
>
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kelvin
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ralf Palmisano
>
> Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen
>
>
>
> Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
>
> Member Royal Society of Medicine
>
> Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences
>
>
>
> Hartmannstr. 14
>
> 91052 Erlangen, Germany
>
>
>
> [phone] (Secretary)
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>
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> www.oice.uni-erlangen.de<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.oice.uni-2Derlangen.de&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=6sTal9wJqjn9--5vJF5mVMedT--hc8U-b9jH5dMpBsA&e=>
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> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e= and include the link in your posting.
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--
------------------------------------------------------------
Steffen Dietzel, PD Dr. rer. nat
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Biomedical Center (BMC)
Head of the Core Facility Bioimaging

Großhaderner Straße 9
D-82152 Planegg-Martinsried
Germany

http://www.bioimaging.bmc.med.uni-muenchen.de