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FW: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

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Deanne Veronica Catmull

FW: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

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Good afternoon List servers!

We have a Zeiss LSM 510 META confocal microscope at our facility In Melbourne, Australia. It recently underwent a computer upgrade to the newer Windows 7 platform with ZEN 2009 software. Before the upgrade (and partially the reason for the upgrade) was that the computer was 10 years old and getting slow. The microscope was sometimes struggling to communicate efficiently with the microscope and we were experiencing a number of software related issues which were making our experiments longer and more troublesome. Sometimes we needed to re-boot the whole system several times just to complete an experiment.
The upgrade occurred three months ago now and the system has never worked efficiently since.
Firstly two printed circuit boards failed which are involved in communication between the computer and the microscope (this is believable given our previous issues). But since then we have found out a few things:

1. The computer that was sent out was configured in the entirely wrong way for our instrument and had to be re-configured to be compatible.

2. The computer was meant to be supplied with 24 GB RAM but it only has 16 GB. This is still in the process of being rectified.

3. The printed circuit boards, and AOTF cable had to be replaced twice (the first replacement was deemed faulty)

4. The PMT to Ch3 no longer works despite it working perfectly before the upgrade

5. The system works when initially started up, then after several hours I was finding that even our test slide could no longer generate a good image in confocal mode despite being able to get a prefect image at the start and the following morning with the same test slide. Is this a laser or power supply issue?

Has anyone else experienced endless issues after an upgrade like this? Any suggestions what may be wrong with our microscope?
Zeiss used to be exceptional with their servicing but have found their service with this upgrade slow and inefficient. There seems to be constant problems with their communication with the German head office and their Quality Control with parts and international pricing. Has anyone else experienced this? We are trying to gather notes to compile when revising the accumulating service costs to the machine.

Many thanks in advance,
Deanne.

Deanne Catmull | Research Assistant and HSR
Melbourne Dental School | Faculty of Medicine, Dentistry and Health Sciences

Level 6, 720 Swanston St
The University of Melbourne, Victoria 3010 Australia
T: +61 3 9341-1577| E: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
facebook.com/melbuni<http://facebook.com/melbuni> | twitter.com/unimelb<http://twitter.com/unimelb> | http://www.unimelb.edu.au<http://www.unimelb.edu.au/>

Jason Kirk

Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

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*****

Hi Deanne,

I am sorry you are having so much trouble with your 510.

First let me state that I am a former Zeiss employee and I do not speak directly for Zeiss, however (hopefully) I can give you some insight into your problems.

Your first 2 issues you should be able get rectified via Zeiss service. Upgrades of the 510 system from XP are tricky because depending on the vintage of the instrument (whether you have the SCSI based grey ECU or the ethernet based laser module). Windows 7 does not support SCSI - so Zeiss had to create a workaround to talk to the SCSI controller via USB. These are not standard items and only apply to earlier vintages of the 510.

Issue #4 - does your Ch3 respond to the gain control at all? Meaning if you turn the Master Gain to 1250V do you see any noise in the image? If not, the problem is likely a bad high voltage board for that particular PMT. HV boards are very sensitive and when coupled to older system electronics they can be finicky.

As to the rest of your issues with the system being slow and inefficient - unfortunately just as you experienced a slowdown in your OS computer performance you will encounter the same types of hardware degradation in the system electronics over time. Every circuit board in your system will eventually fail. It is not a matter of if but when. With these older systems even opening the cases and removing/replacing boards can cause micro-fractures that can lead of unforeseen downstream issues that can compound your problems.

Also keep in mind that the 510 was officially discontinued almost 10 years ago. That means that contracts with suppliers for one-off components are expired and such components are no longer being manufactured. So while you likely can get parts for things such as laser power supplies due to the fact that the laser vendor still manufactures a compatible model - specialized components specifically made for the 510 are just not being made anymore. That means that any parts that are ordered from Germany come from a spare parts stock that is likely as old as the part you currently have. Also they may have been salvaged from systems that have been traded in, etc which can account for a higher failure rate. Service agreements (in the US at least) stopped being offered this year for the 510 as the end of life projections for availability of parts is dwindling and Zeiss can no longer guarantee the level of service you are used to. Traditionally Zeiss has offered parts and labor service on instruments that are past contract availabilty dates - and they will work diligently to repair and maintain these systems as well as they can - but they too can only do so much with the resources they have.

There is a point in every system’s lifetime where it just become inefficient to keep fixing - and for many 510 systems that date is rapidly approaching. Many are just on borrowed time.

Sorry for the gloom and doom - but I hope this helps in understanding a situation that every hardware vendor eventually has to face.

-Jason Kirk

> On Aug 2, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Deanne Veronica Catmull <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
>
> Good afternoon List servers!
>
> We have a Zeiss LSM 510 META confocal microscope at our facility In Melbourne, Australia. It recently underwent a computer upgrade to the newer Windows 7 platform with ZEN 2009 software. Before the upgrade (and partially the reason for the upgrade) was that the computer was 10 years old and getting slow. The microscope was sometimes struggling to communicate efficiently with the microscope and we were experiencing a number of software related issues which were making our experiments longer and more troublesome. Sometimes we needed to re-boot the whole system several times just to complete an experiment.
> The upgrade occurred three months ago now and the system has never worked efficiently since.
> Firstly two printed circuit boards failed which are involved in communication between the computer and the microscope (this is believable given our previous issues). But since then we have found out a few things:
>
> 1. The computer that was sent out was configured in the entirely wrong way for our instrument and had to be re-configured to be compatible.
>
> 2. The computer was meant to be supplied with 24 GB RAM but it only has 16 GB. This is still in the process of being rectified.
>
> 3. The printed circuit boards, and AOTF cable had to be replaced twice (the first replacement was deemed faulty)
>
> 4. The PMT to Ch3 no longer works despite it working perfectly before the upgrade
>
> 5. The system works when initially started up, then after several hours I was finding that even our test slide could no longer generate a good image in confocal mode despite being able to get a prefect image at the start and the following morning with the same test slide. Is this a laser or power supply issue?
>
> Has anyone else experienced endless issues after an upgrade like this? Any suggestions what may be wrong with our microscope?
> Zeiss used to be exceptional with their servicing but have found their service with this upgrade slow and inefficient. There seems to be constant problems with their communication with the German head office and their Quality Control with parts and international pricing. Has anyone else experienced this? We are trying to gather notes to compile when revising the accumulating service costs to the machine.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Deanne.
>
> Deanne Catmull | Research Assistant and HSR
> Melbourne Dental School | Faculty of Medicine, Dentistry and Health Sciences
>
> Level 6, 720 Swanston St
> The University of Melbourne, Victoria 3010 Australia
> T: +61 3 9341-1577| E: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> facebook.com/melbuni<http://facebook.com/melbuni> | twitter.com/unimelb<http://twitter.com/unimelb> | http://www.unimelb.edu.au<http://www.unimelb.edu.au/>

Rosemary.White

Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Deanne,

I can only second Jason's email. We have a Leica confocal purchased in 2001, and like the Zeiss 510, it will no longer be serviced by Leica from December this year. We have cannibalised a unit being decommissioned from another institution, but I imagine we will decommission our instrument by the end of next year. You might want to investigate obtaining spare parts from a decommissioned system, though as Jason says, the electronic components age even if just sitting on the shelf.

The problem with trying to keep an instrument like this going is that you really need to have a local enthusuastic tinkerer happy to exchange boards and other components, or else an independent engineer who knows the system very well and who is willing to keep your system going. We are fortunately in the latter category. Eventually, you have to weigh up the salary time (and external engineer bills) spent keeping an older system going against purchase of a superior and generally easier to use new system.

Good luck,
cheers,
Rosemary

Dr Rosemary White
CSIRO Black Mountain
GPO Box 1600
Canberra, ACT 2601

T 61 2 6246 5475

________________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Jason Kirk [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, 4 August 2015 1:59 a.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Deanne,

I am sorry you are having so much trouble with your 510.

First let me state that I am a former Zeiss employee and I do not speak directly for Zeiss, however (hopefully) I can give you some insight into your problems.

Your first 2 issues you should be able get rectified via Zeiss service. Upgrades of the 510 system from XP are tricky because depending on the vintage of the instrument (whether you have the SCSI based grey ECU or the ethernet based laser module). Windows 7 does not support SCSI - so Zeiss had to create a workaround to talk to the SCSI controller via USB. These are not standard items and only apply to earlier vintages of the 510.

Issue #4 - does your Ch3 respond to the gain control at all? Meaning if you turn the Master Gain to 1250V do you see any noise in the image? If not, the problem is likely a bad high voltage board for that particular PMT. HV boards are very sensitive and when coupled to older system electronics they can be finicky.

As to the rest of your issues with the system being slow and inefficient - unfortunately just as you experienced a slowdown in your OS computer performance you will encounter the same types of hardware degradation in the system electronics over time. Every circuit board in your system will eventually fail. It is not a matter of if but when. With these older systems even opening the cases and removing/replacing boards can cause micro-fractures that can lead of unforeseen downstream issues that can compound your problems.

Also keep in mind that the 510 was officially discontinued almost 10 years ago. That means that contracts with suppliers for one-off components are expired and such components are no longer being manufactured. So while you likely can get parts for things such as laser power supplies due to the fact that the laser vendor still manufactures a compatible model - specialized components specifically made for the 510 are just not being made anymore. That means that any parts that are ordered from Germany come from a spare parts stock that is likely as old as the part you currently have. Also they may have been salvaged from systems that have been traded in, etc which can account for a higher failure rate. Service agreements (in the US at least) stopped being offered this year for the 510 as the end of life projections for availability of parts is dwindling and Zeiss can no longer guarantee the level of service you are used to. Traditionally Zeiss has offered parts and labor service on instruments that are past contract availabilty dates - and they will work diligently to repair and maintain these systems as well as they can - but they too can only do so much with the resources they have.

There is a point in every system’s lifetime where it just become inefficient to keep fixing - and for many 510 systems that date is rapidly approaching. Many are just on borrowed time.

Sorry for the gloom and doom - but I hope this helps in understanding a situation that every hardware vendor eventually has to face.

-Jason Kirk

Andreas Bruckbauer

Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

In reply to this post by Jason Kirk

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Jason,
When I remember correctly, the successor to the LSM510 was introduced in 2008, e.g. At the FOM in Osaka, Awaji, this is only 7 years ago, and I am sure the 510 was produced a bit longer?

Beat wishes
Andreas

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jason Kirk" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎03/‎08/‎2015 17:03
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Deanne,

I am sorry you are having so much trouble with your 510.

First let me state that I am a former Zeiss employee and I do not speak directly for Zeiss, however (hopefully) I can give you some insight into your problems.

Your first 2 issues you should be able get rectified via Zeiss service. Upgrades of the 510 system from XP are tricky because depending on the vintage of the instrument (whether you have the SCSI based grey ECU or the ethernet based laser module). Windows 7 does not support SCSI - so Zeiss had to create a workaround to talk to the SCSI controller via USB. These are not standard items and only apply to earlier vintages of the 510.

Issue #4 - does your Ch3 respond to the gain control at all? Meaning if you turn the Master Gain to 1250V do you see any noise in the image? If not, the problem is likely a bad high voltage board for that particular PMT. HV boards are very sensitive and when coupled to older system electronics they can be finicky.

As to the rest of your issues with the system being slow and inefficient - unfortunately just as you experienced a slowdown in your OS computer performance you will encounter the same types of hardware degradation in the system electronics over time. Every circuit board in your system will eventually fail. It is not a matter of if but when. With these older systems even opening the cases and removing/replacing boards can cause micro-fractures that can lead of unforeseen downstream issues that can compound your problems.

Also keep in mind that the 510 was officially discontinued almost 10 years ago. That means that contracts with suppliers for one-off components are expired and such components are no longer being manufactured. So while you likely can get parts for things such as laser power supplies due to the fact that the laser vendor still manufactures a compatible model - specialized components specifically made for the 510 are just not being made anymore. That means that any parts that are ordered from Germany come from a spare parts stock that is likely as old as the part you currently have. Also they may have been salvaged from systems that have been traded in, etc which can account for a higher failure rate. Service agreements (in the US at least) stopped being offered this year for the 510 as the end of life projections for availability of parts is dwindling and Zeiss can no longer guarantee the level of service you are used to. Traditionally Zeiss has offered parts and labor service on instruments that are past contract availabilty dates - and they will work diligently to repair and maintain these systems as well as they can - but they too can only do so much with the resources they have.

There is a point in every system’s lifetime where it just become inefficient to keep fixing - and for many 510 systems that date is rapidly approaching. Many are just on borrowed time.

Sorry for the gloom and doom - but I hope this helps in understanding a situation that every hardware vendor eventually has to face.

-Jason Kirk

Torsten.Fregin

Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

In reply to this post by Rosemary.White

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi,

If you still have the old computer - is the microscope nicely working
with it? Did you try a XP installation on the new computer? If you
have a backup of the old working system - maybe you can copy it on a
new hard disk and put it in the new computer and do a repair
installation so see if it works on the new hardware (but not the new
operating system). Then you can try an upgrade to Win Vista (and then
to Win7).

@ Jason: Adaptec has 32bit drivers for their scsi cards and Win 7.

BTW: Until recently, we had an old Leica TCS NT system - still working
(from 1997). Well, new photomultiplier tubes are always a good idea...
Picture quality was not bad either, and a new confocal was not much
faster (533 vs. 400 lines per second scanning speed). Now we got new
equipment, though, and you know how difficulty it is sometimes to find
enough space for your toys...

:-) Torsten

Zitat von [hidden email]:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Deanne,
>
> I can only second Jason's email. We have a Leica confocal purchased
> in 2001, and like the Zeiss 510, it will no longer be serviced by
> Leica from December this year. We have cannibalised a unit being
> decommissioned from another institution, but I imagine we will
> decommission our instrument by the end of next year. You might want
> to investigate obtaining spare parts from a decommissioned system,
> though as Jason says, the electronic components age even if just
> sitting on the shelf.
>
> The problem with trying to keep an instrument like this going is
> that you really need to have a local enthusuastic tinkerer happy to
> exchange boards and other components, or else an independent
> engineer who knows the system very well and who is willing to keep
> your system going. We are fortunately in the latter category.
> Eventually, you have to weigh up the salary time (and external
> engineer bills) spent keeping an older system going against purchase
> of a superior and generally easier to use new system.
>
> Good luck,
> cheers,
> Rosemary
>
> Dr Rosemary White
> CSIRO Black Mountain
> GPO Box 1600
> Canberra, ACT 2601
>
> T 61 2 6246 5475
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [[hidden email]] on
> behalf of Jason Kirk [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, 4 August 2015 1:59 a.m.
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Deanne,
>
> I am sorry you are having so much trouble with your 510.
>
> First let me state that I am a former Zeiss employee and I do not
> speak directly for Zeiss, however (hopefully) I can give you some
> insight into your problems.
>
> Your first 2 issues you should be able get rectified via Zeiss
> service. Upgrades of the 510 system from XP are tricky because
> depending on the vintage of the instrument (whether you have the
> SCSI based grey ECU or the ethernet based laser module). Windows 7
> does not support SCSI - so Zeiss had to create a workaround to talk
> to the SCSI controller via USB. These are not standard items and
> only apply to earlier vintages of the 510.
>
> Issue #4 - does your Ch3 respond to the gain control at all?
> Meaning if you turn the Master Gain to 1250V do you see any noise in
> the image? If not, the problem is likely a bad high voltage board
> for that particular PMT. HV boards are very sensitive and when
> coupled to older system electronics they can be finicky.
>
> As to the rest of your issues with the system being slow and
> inefficient - unfortunately just as you experienced a slowdown in
> your OS computer performance you will encounter the same types of
> hardware degradation in the system electronics over time. Every
> circuit board in your system will eventually fail. It is not a
> matter of if but when. With these older systems even opening the
> cases and removing/replacing boards can cause micro-fractures that
> can lead of unforeseen downstream issues that can compound your
> problems.
>
> Also keep in mind that the 510 was officially discontinued almost 10
> years ago. That means that contracts with suppliers for one-off
> components are expired and such components are no longer being
> manufactured. So while you likely can get parts for things such as
> laser power supplies due to the fact that the laser vendor still
> manufactures a compatible model - specialized components
> specifically made for the 510 are just not being made anymore. That
> means that any parts that are ordered from Germany come from a spare
> parts stock that is likely as old as the part you currently have.
> Also they may have been salvaged from systems that have been traded
> in, etc which can account for a higher failure rate. Service
> agreements (in the US at least) stopped being offered this year for
> the 510 as the end of life projections for availability of parts is
> dwindling and Zeiss can no longer guarantee the level of service you
> are used to. Traditionally Zeiss has offered parts and labor
> service on instruments that are past contract availabilty dates -
> and they will work diligently to repair and maintain these systems
> as well as they can - but they too can only do so much with the
> resources they have.
>
> There is a point in every system's lifetime where it just become
> inefficient to keep fixing - and for many 510 systems that date is
> rapidly approaching. Many are just on borrowed time.
>
> Sorry for the gloom and doom - but I hope this helps in
> understanding a situation that every hardware vendor eventually has
> to face.
>
> -Jason Kirk
>
>> On Aug 2, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Deanne Veronica Catmull
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>>
>> Good afternoon List servers!
>>
>> We have a Zeiss LSM 510 META confocal microscope at our facility In
>> Melbourne, Australia. It recently underwent a computer upgrade to
>> the newer Windows 7 platform with ZEN 2009 software. Before the
>> upgrade (and partially the reason for the upgrade) was that the
>> computer was 10 years old and getting slow. The microscope was
>> sometimes struggling to communicate efficiently with the microscope
>> and we were experiencing a number of software related issues which
>> were making our experiments longer and more troublesome. Sometimes
>> we needed to re-boot the whole system several times just to
>> complete an experiment.
>> The upgrade occurred three months ago now and the system has never
>> worked efficiently since.
>> Firstly two printed circuit boards failed which are involved in
>> communication between the computer and the microscope (this is
>> believable given our previous issues). But since then we have found
>> out a few things:
>>
>> 1. The computer that was sent out was configured in the
>> entirely wrong way for our instrument and had to be re-configured
>> to be compatible.
>>
>> 2. The computer was meant to be supplied with 24 GB RAM but
>> it only has 16 GB. This is still in the process of being rectified.
>>
>> 3. The printed circuit boards, and AOTF cable had to be
>> replaced twice (the first replacement was deemed faulty)
>>
>> 4. The PMT to Ch3 no longer works despite it working
>> perfectly before the upgrade
>>
>> 5. The system works when initially started up, then after
>> several hours I was finding that even our test slide could no
>> longer generate a good image in confocal mode despite being able to
>> get a prefect image at the start and the following morning with the
>> same test slide. Is this a laser or power supply issue?
>>
>> Has anyone else experienced endless issues after an upgrade like
>> this? Any suggestions what may be wrong with our microscope?
>> Zeiss used to be exceptional with their servicing but have found
>> their service with this upgrade slow and inefficient. There seems
>> to be constant problems with their communication with the German
>> head office and their Quality Control with parts and international
>> pricing. Has anyone else experienced this? We are trying to gather
>> notes to compile when revising the accumulating service costs to
>> the machine.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance,
>> Deanne.
>>
>> Deanne Catmull | Research Assistant and HSR
>> Melbourne Dental School | Faculty of Medicine, Dentistry and Health Sciences
>>
>> Level 6, 720 Swanston St
>> The University of Melbourne, Victoria 3010 Australia
>> T: +61 3 9341-1577| E:
>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>> facebook.com/melbuni<http://facebook.com/melbuni> |
>> twitter.com/unimelb<http://twitter.com/unimelb> |
>> http://www.unimelb.edu.au<http://www.unimelb.edu.au/>
>

Jason Kirk

Re: LSM 510 META computer upgrade

In reply to this post by Andreas Bruckbauer

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

@Andreas

At least in the US - Zeiss did its last deliveries the 510 in mid 2008 - but the retirement was announced in early 2007 (so ‘almost’ 10 - 8 exactly) :)

However there were 2 variations of the 510 - and the ones with the older ECU boxes Zeiss stopped using in 2005 tend to be the ones being ‘retired’ with greater frequency. The ones with the larger laser module use TCPIP to talk to the hardware so those should accept PC upgrades with modern hardware more easily.

@Torsten

The problem is less on the software side and more on the hardware side. Modern motherboards do not support the specific early generation PCI SCSI card that Zeiss used in XP - and in around 2005 (with in the introduction of the LSM LIVE) Zeiss changed out the SCSI ECU for a ethernet based controller. So this issue only effects the systems that use this old ECU and changing to XP wouldn’t help the fact that newer PCs cannot support this card. There are of course ways around this - and Zeiss has done it for Windows 7 - but they only present this solution on their PC upgrades.

The cool thing is that there are so many LSM 510 systems around that third party service companies (and users for that matter) can and will try to make these systems function and provide service if Zeiss ever stops. LSMTech is a good example of this (http://www.lsmtech.com/ <http://www.lsmtech.com/>).