Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties ((I refer to use of non powdered gloves only).

[Axel Kurt Preuss]

Dear All

How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?

Mostly, there are two sides encountered
a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial investigated, hazardous properties of immersion oil and other chemicals used. This supports Glove Only policy
b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties, users rely on protection and become more careless and introduce more hazard than without gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc are not touched by someone else before with gloves “ who just ran a gel “ etc
            This supports No Glove policy.

I personally tend to believe that b) is a serious problem, but cannot refute a): the argument that core facilities belong to labs and users are still not protected from known or unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion oil)

So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope not to open a can of worms ☺ …or I just did..

Of course I will consult NIH and other guidelines too, but I am also interested in practical aspects or any opinion / advice / experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions / comments

Thanks
Axel











Note: This message may contain confidential information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to you by mistake, please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Thank you.

[tineke vendrig]

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Dear all,

I am working at the TU in Delft, the Netherlands, applied sciences, Kavli
Institute and we use the one glove policy and this workls fine! Of course,
you have to be allert, but when evrybody does is...it is OK!

Kind regards,Tineke Vendrig

2011/9/21 Axel Kurt Preuss <[hidden email]>

> Dear All
>
> How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
>
> Mostly, there are two sides encountered
> a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial investigated, hazardous
> properties of immersion oil and other chemicals used. This supports Glove
> Only policy
> b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties, users rely on protection and
> become more careless and introduce more hazard than without gloves.
> Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes users confident that keyboards,
> mice, scopes etc are not touched by someone else before with gloves “ who
> just ran a gel “ etc
>            This supports No Glove policy.
>
> I personally tend to believe that b) is a serious problem, but cannot
> refute a): the argument that core facilities belong to labs and users are
> still not protected from known or unknown hazards in the facility (e.g.
> immersion oil)
>
> So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or No Glove policy.  Same for
> labcoats etc. Hope not to open a can of worms ☺ …or I just did..
>
> Of course I will consult NIH and other guidelines too, but I am also
> interested in practical aspects or any opinion / advice / experience /
> advocatus diaboli  ambitions / comments
>
> Thanks
> Axel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note: This message may contain confidential information. If this Email/Fax
> has been sent to you by mistake, please notify the sender and delete it
> immediately. Thank you.
>

[Tobias Baskin]

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Axel,
        In my opinion, gloves are widely misued
among scientists. They are not magic saftey
wands, rather they are a tool and like any other
can be used correctly and incorrectly. The idea
of a glove is two fold - first to protect the
equipment from the user. Second is to protect the
user from the equipment.

        Let's consider the first one first. With
high vacuum equpitment, such as an SEM, the oil
from one's fingers can contaminate the column, so
when handling the sample loader and so on, one
wears gloves to keep finger oil out of the
column. For light micrscopes, I have never heard
of finger oil damaging equipment short of folks
who put their thumb on the eyepiece.

        Now the second one. In science we
sometimes work with strong acids, viruses, what
have you that can damage us when they have
contact with skin. One prudently wears gloves
while handling such samples. But, and here is the
point that people forget, as soon as you are
finished handling those samples, you must remove
the gloves. Otherwise, you run the risk of moving
that harmful thing from your glove to whatever
else you touch with the glove (doorknobs, focus
knobs, etc) thereby contaminating the next user.
I see people running around the building with
gloves on. In this way, those gloves are speading
whatever dangerous thing that got on them all
around the building. I suppose this could be
countenanced if everyone wore gloves everywhere,
but that hardly seems like best practice. Instead
it is much more sensible to take off the gloves
as soon as you put the down the dangerous stuff.

        But in this connection one has to ask
what is dangerous in a microscopy lab? You wrote
immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil
to be dangerous to the microscope user. Foregive
me but this sounds crazy. Of course if one drank
a bottle of immersion oil it would probably not
be good, but getting a trace on your skin is just
part of life.  You might hit your foot on the
door too. At a certain point we reach a risk
assymptote and that simply has to be accepted.
But even if you feel that all risks must be
mitigated and someone gets immersion oil on their
gloves, they are just going to spread it around
unless they remove their gloves after finishing
their oiling. Your facility might include
something more widely agreed on as dangerous,
like xylene for example, and the same thing goes:
wear gloves while handling the dangerous thing,
and take them off the moment you are finished.

        And lab coats? If a person is worried
about their clothing, then they can chose to wear
a coat. I for one am proud of the splotches of
tol blue that my shirts and trousers have
accumulated over the years. Good memories,
intersting colors. What's the problem with that?

        As ever,
                Tobias

>Dear All
>
>How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
>
>Mostly, there are two sides encountered
>a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial
>investigated, hazardous properties of immersion
>oil and other chemicals used. This supports
>Glove Only policy
>b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties,
>users rely on protection and become more
>careless and introduce more hazard than without
>gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes
>users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc
>are not touched by someone else before with
>gloves " who just ran a gel " etc
>             This supports No Glove policy.
>
>I personally tend to believe that b) is a
>serious problem, but cannot refute a): the
>argument that core facilities belong to labs and
>users are still not protected from known or
>unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion
>oil)
>
>So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or
>No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope
>not to open a can of worms ? Šor I just did..
>
>Of course I will consult NIH and other
>guidelines too, but I am also interested in
>practical aspects or any opinion / advice /
>experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions /
>comments
>
>Thanks
>Axel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Note: This message may contain confidential
>information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to
>you by mistake, please notify the sender and
>delete it immediately. Thank you.

[Martin Wessendorf-2]

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On 9/21/2011 7:42 AM, Tobias Baskin wrote:

> But in this connection one has to ask what is dangerous in a microscopy
> lab? You wrote immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil to be
> dangerous to the microscope user.

In the 1970s, most or all synthetic immersion oils reportedly contained
30-45% PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls), which are nasty.  (See:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/181/4104/990.4.citation?sid=69efec5e-1a14-4650-9c93-7e40a08deb0e 
)

I don't know about gloves, but old oil sitting around microscope
facilities is a needless hazard and should be replaced with modern
formulations.  Cargille (--no commercial connection) claims that they
have no PCBs in their oils; I have no idea about other brands.

Martin Wessendorf
--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]

[Z.J. Zhang]

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My simple rule with glove use is:

Absolutely NO gloves when you operate the microscope!!!

WEAR gloves when you deal with your sample, then take them off and throw them away. The contaminated gloves will contaminate the microscope and therefore to other users. If a user feels that the microscope is contaminated and unsafe to use, come talk to me. So far, it works pretty well.


Zhaojie

Zhaojie Zhang, Ph. D.
Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
University of Wyoming
Laramie, WY 82071
PHONE: [phone]
FAX: [phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tobias Baskin
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:43 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

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*****

Axel,
        In my opinion, gloves are widely misued
among scientists. They are not magic saftey
wands, rather they are a tool and like any other
can be used correctly and incorrectly. The idea
of a glove is two fold - first to protect the
equipment from the user. Second is to protect the
user from the equipment.

        Let's consider the first one first. With
high vacuum equpitment, such as an SEM, the oil
from one's fingers can contaminate the column, so
when handling the sample loader and so on, one
wears gloves to keep finger oil out of the
column. For light micrscopes, I have never heard
of finger oil damaging equipment short of folks
who put their thumb on the eyepiece.

        Now the second one. In science we
sometimes work with strong acids, viruses, what
have you that can damage us when they have
contact with skin. One prudently wears gloves
while handling such samples. But, and here is the
point that people forget, as soon as you are
finished handling those samples, you must remove
the gloves. Otherwise, you run the risk of moving
that harmful thing from your glove to whatever
else you touch with the glove (doorknobs, focus
knobs, etc) thereby contaminating the next user.
I see people running around the building with
gloves on. In this way, those gloves are speading
whatever dangerous thing that got on them all
around the building. I suppose this could be
countenanced if everyone wore gloves everywhere,
but that hardly seems like best practice. Instead
it is much more sensible to take off the gloves
as soon as you put the down the dangerous stuff.

        But in this connection one has to ask
what is dangerous in a microscopy lab? You wrote
immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil
to be dangerous to the microscope user. Foregive
me but this sounds crazy. Of course if one drank
a bottle of immersion oil it would probably not
be good, but getting a trace on your skin is just
part of life.  You might hit your foot on the
door too. At a certain point we reach a risk
assymptote and that simply has to be accepted.
But even if you feel that all risks must be
mitigated and someone gets immersion oil on their
gloves, they are just going to spread it around
unless they remove their gloves after finishing
their oiling. Your facility might include
something more widely agreed on as dangerous,
like xylene for example, and the same thing goes:
wear gloves while handling the dangerous thing,
and take them off the moment you are finished.

        And lab coats? If a person is worried
about their clothing, then they can chose to wear
a coat. I for one am proud of the splotches of
tol blue that my shirts and trousers have
accumulated over the years. Good memories,
intersting colors. What's the problem with that?

        As ever,
                Tobias

>Dear All
>
>How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
>
>Mostly, there are two sides encountered
>a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial
>investigated, hazardous properties of immersion
>oil and other chemicals used. This supports
>Glove Only policy
>b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties,
>users rely on protection and become more
>careless and introduce more hazard than without
>gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes
>users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc
>are not touched by someone else before with
>gloves " who just ran a gel " etc
>             This supports No Glove policy.
>
>I personally tend to believe that b) is a
>serious problem, but cannot refute a): the
>argument that core facilities belong to labs and
>users are still not protected from known or
>unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion
>oil)
>
>So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or
>No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope
>not to open a can of worms ? Šor I just did..
>
>Of course I will consult NIH and other
>guidelines too, but I am also interested in
>practical aspects or any opinion / advice /
>experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions /
>comments
>
>Thanks
>Axel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Note: This message may contain confidential
>information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to
>you by mistake, please notify the sender and
>delete it immediately. Thank you.

[mcammer]

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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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And how do you enforce this?
-Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Z.J. Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

My simple rule with glove use is:

Absolutely NO gloves when you operate the microscope!!!

WEAR gloves when you deal with your sample, then take them off and throw them away. The contaminated gloves will contaminate the microscope and therefore to other users. If a user feels that the microscope is contaminated and unsafe to use, come talk to me. So far, it works pretty well.


Zhaojie

Zhaojie Zhang, Ph. D.
Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
University of Wyoming
Laramie, WY 82071
PHONE: [phone]
FAX: [phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tobias Baskin
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:43 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
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http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

Axel,
        In my opinion, gloves are widely misued
among scientists. They are not magic saftey
wands, rather they are a tool and like any other
can be used correctly and incorrectly. The idea
of a glove is two fold - first to protect the
equipment from the user. Second is to protect the
user from the equipment.

        Let's consider the first one first. With
high vacuum equpitment, such as an SEM, the oil
from one's fingers can contaminate the column, so
when handling the sample loader and so on, one
wears gloves to keep finger oil out of the
column. For light micrscopes, I have never heard
of finger oil damaging equipment short of folks
who put their thumb on the eyepiece.

        Now the second one. In science we
sometimes work with strong acids, viruses, what
have you that can damage us when they have
contact with skin. One prudently wears gloves
while handling such samples. But, and here is the
point that people forget, as soon as you are
finished handling those samples, you must remove
the gloves. Otherwise, you run the risk of moving
that harmful thing from your glove to whatever
else you touch with the glove (doorknobs, focus
knobs, etc) thereby contaminating the next user.
I see people running around the building with
gloves on. In this way, those gloves are speading
whatever dangerous thing that got on them all
around the building. I suppose this could be
countenanced if everyone wore gloves everywhere,
but that hardly seems like best practice. Instead
it is much more sensible to take off the gloves
as soon as you put the down the dangerous stuff.

        But in this connection one has to ask
what is dangerous in a microscopy lab? You wrote
immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil
to be dangerous to the microscope user. Foregive
me but this sounds crazy. Of course if one drank
a bottle of immersion oil it would probably not
be good, but getting a trace on your skin is just
part of life.  You might hit your foot on the
door too. At a certain point we reach a risk
assymptote and that simply has to be accepted.
But even if you feel that all risks must be
mitigated and someone gets immersion oil on their
gloves, they are just going to spread it around
unless they remove their gloves after finishing
their oiling. Your facility might include
something more widely agreed on as dangerous,
like xylene for example, and the same thing goes:
wear gloves while handling the dangerous thing,
and take them off the moment you are finished.

        And lab coats? If a person is worried
about their clothing, then they can chose to wear
a coat. I for one am proud of the splotches of
tol blue that my shirts and trousers have
accumulated over the years. Good memories,
intersting colors. What's the problem with that?

        As ever,
                Tobias

>Dear All
>
>How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
>
>Mostly, there are two sides encountered
>a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial
>investigated, hazardous properties of immersion
>oil and other chemicals used. This supports
>Glove Only policy
>b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties,
>users rely on protection and become more
>careless and introduce more hazard than without
>gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes
>users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc
>are not touched by someone else before with
>gloves " who just ran a gel " etc
>             This supports No Glove policy.
>
>I personally tend to believe that b) is a
>serious problem, but cannot refute a): the
>argument that core facilities belong to labs and
>users are still not protected from known or
>unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion
>oil)
>
>So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or
>No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope
>not to open a can of worms ? Šor I just did..
>
>Of course I will consult NIH and other
>guidelines too, but I am also interested in
>practical aspects or any opinion / advice /
>experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions /
>comments
>
>Thanks
>Axel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Note: This message may contain confidential
>information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to
>you by mistake, please notify the sender and
>delete it immediately. Thank you.

------------------------------------------------------------
This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
=================================

[Z.J. Zhang]

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The policy is embedded in the confocal training.

You can also put the policy on the operation manual. Tell your users that the next user (or victim) might be him/herself. Users would follow the rule (most of the time, like everything else). Science is a "dangerous" business, after all.

Zhaojie

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

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And how do you enforce this?
-Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Z.J. Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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My simple rule with glove use is:

Absolutely NO gloves when you operate the microscope!!!

WEAR gloves when you deal with your sample, then take them off and throw them away. The contaminated gloves will contaminate the microscope and therefore to other users. If a user feels that the microscope is contaminated and unsafe to use, come talk to me. So far, it works pretty well.


Zhaojie

Zhaojie Zhang, Ph. D.
Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
University of Wyoming
Laramie, WY 82071
PHONE: [phone]
FAX: [phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tobias Baskin
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:43 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

Axel,
        In my opinion, gloves are widely misued
among scientists. They are not magic saftey
wands, rather they are a tool and like any other
can be used correctly and incorrectly. The idea
of a glove is two fold - first to protect the
equipment from the user. Second is to protect the
user from the equipment.

        Let's consider the first one first. With
high vacuum equpitment, such as an SEM, the oil
from one's fingers can contaminate the column, so
when handling the sample loader and so on, one
wears gloves to keep finger oil out of the
column. For light micrscopes, I have never heard
of finger oil damaging equipment short of folks
who put their thumb on the eyepiece.

        Now the second one. In science we
sometimes work with strong acids, viruses, what
have you that can damage us when they have
contact with skin. One prudently wears gloves
while handling such samples. But, and here is the
point that people forget, as soon as you are
finished handling those samples, you must remove
the gloves. Otherwise, you run the risk of moving
that harmful thing from your glove to whatever
else you touch with the glove (doorknobs, focus
knobs, etc) thereby contaminating the next user.
I see people running around the building with
gloves on. In this way, those gloves are speading
whatever dangerous thing that got on them all
around the building. I suppose this could be
countenanced if everyone wore gloves everywhere,
but that hardly seems like best practice. Instead
it is much more sensible to take off the gloves
as soon as you put the down the dangerous stuff.

        But in this connection one has to ask
what is dangerous in a microscopy lab? You wrote
immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil
to be dangerous to the microscope user. Foregive
me but this sounds crazy. Of course if one drank
a bottle of immersion oil it would probably not
be good, but getting a trace on your skin is just
part of life.  You might hit your foot on the
door too. At a certain point we reach a risk
assymptote and that simply has to be accepted.
But even if you feel that all risks must be
mitigated and someone gets immersion oil on their
gloves, they are just going to spread it around
unless they remove their gloves after finishing
their oiling. Your facility might include
something more widely agreed on as dangerous,
like xylene for example, and the same thing goes:
wear gloves while handling the dangerous thing,
and take them off the moment you are finished.

        And lab coats? If a person is worried
about their clothing, then they can chose to wear
a coat. I for one am proud of the splotches of
tol blue that my shirts and trousers have
accumulated over the years. Good memories,
intersting colors. What's the problem with that?

        As ever,
                Tobias

>Dear All
>
>How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
>
>Mostly, there are two sides encountered
>a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial
>investigated, hazardous properties of immersion
>oil and other chemicals used. This supports
>Glove Only policy
>b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties,
>users rely on protection and become more
>careless and introduce more hazard than without
>gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes
>users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc
>are not touched by someone else before with
>gloves " who just ran a gel " etc
>             This supports No Glove policy.
>
>I personally tend to believe that b) is a
>serious problem, but cannot refute a): the
>argument that core facilities belong to labs and
>users are still not protected from known or
>unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion
>oil)
>
>So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or
>No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope
>not to open a can of worms ? Šor I just did..
>
>Of course I will consult NIH and other
>guidelines too, but I am also interested in
>practical aspects or any opinion / advice /
>experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions /
>comments
>
>Thanks
>Axel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Note: This message may contain confidential
>information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to
>you by mistake, please notify the sender and
>delete it immediately. Thank you.

------------------------------------------------------------
This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
=================================

[ncobb]

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Just a note. As per 29 CFR
1910.1030<http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10051>,
gloves must be worn when hands are in contact with blood, other potentially
infectious materials, mucous membranes, and non-intact skin; when performing
vascular access procedures (with some exceptions), and when handling or
touching contaminated items or surfaces (OSHA defines contamination as the
presence or reasonably anticipated presence of blood or other potentially
infectious materials). OSHA also requires that employers provide
hypoallergenic gloves in the presence of bloodborne pathogens.<goog_1907764101>

Key word here is "reasonably anticipated presence" vague yet look in the lab
you are in, any and all possible contaminants including whats being viewed
in the scopes.

My suggestion, simple when in the lab where gloves and goggles and change
gloves before using scope. Keep your lab members safe, and abide by OSHA
standards.


Nick Cobb
SiMPore

2011/9/21 Z.J. Zhang <[hidden email]>

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> The policy is embedded in the confocal training.
>
> You can also put the policy on the operation manual. Tell your users that
> the next user (or victim) might be him/herself. Users would follow the rule
> (most of the time, like everything else). Science is a "dangerous" business,
> after all.
>
> Zhaojie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:26 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> And how do you enforce this?
> -Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Z.J. Zhang
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> My simple rule with glove use is:
>
> Absolutely NO gloves when you operate the microscope!!!
>
> WEAR gloves when you deal with your sample, then take them off and throw
> them away. The contaminated gloves will contaminate the microscope and
> therefore to other users. If a user feels that the microscope is
> contaminated and unsafe to use, come talk to me. So far, it works pretty
> well.
>
>
> Zhaojie
>
> Zhaojie Zhang, Ph. D.
> Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
> University of Wyoming
> Laramie, WY 82071
> PHONE: [phone]
> FAX: [phone]
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Tobias Baskin
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:43 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> Axel,
>        In my opinion, gloves are widely misued
> among scientists. They are not magic saftey
> wands, rather they are a tool and like any other
> can be used correctly and incorrectly. The idea
> of a glove is two fold - first to protect the
> equipment from the user. Second is to protect the
> user from the equipment.
>
>        Let's consider the first one first. With
> high vacuum equpitment, such as an SEM, the oil
> from one's fingers can contaminate the column, so
> when handling the sample loader and so on, one
> wears gloves to keep finger oil out of the
> column. For light micrscopes, I have never heard
> of finger oil damaging equipment short of folks
> who put their thumb on the eyepiece.
>
>        Now the second one. In science we
> sometimes work with strong acids, viruses, what
> have you that can damage us when they have
> contact with skin. One prudently wears gloves
> while handling such samples. But, and here is the
> point that people forget, as soon as you are
> finished handling those samples, you must remove
> the gloves. Otherwise, you run the risk of moving
> that harmful thing from your glove to whatever
> else you touch with the glove (doorknobs, focus
> knobs, etc) thereby contaminating the next user.
> I see people running around the building with
> gloves on. In this way, those gloves are speading
> whatever dangerous thing that got on them all
> around the building. I suppose this could be
> countenanced if everyone wore gloves everywhere,
> but that hardly seems like best practice. Instead
> it is much more sensible to take off the gloves
> as soon as you put the down the dangerous stuff.
>
>        But in this connection one has to ask
> what is dangerous in a microscopy lab? You wrote
> immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil
> to be dangerous to the microscope user. Foregive
> me but this sounds crazy. Of course if one drank
> a bottle of immersion oil it would probably not
> be good, but getting a trace on your skin is just
> part of life.  You might hit your foot on the
> door too. At a certain point we reach a risk
> assymptote and that simply has to be accepted.
> But even if you feel that all risks must be
> mitigated and someone gets immersion oil on their
> gloves, they are just going to spread it around
> unless they remove their gloves after finishing
> their oiling. Your facility might include
> something more widely agreed on as dangerous,
> like xylene for example, and the same thing goes:
> wear gloves while handling the dangerous thing,
> and take them off the moment you are finished.
>
>        And lab coats? If a person is worried
> about their clothing, then they can chose to wear
> a coat. I for one am proud of the splotches of
> tol blue that my shirts and trousers have
> accumulated over the years. Good memories,
> intersting colors. What's the problem with that?
>
>        As ever,
>                Tobias
>
>
> >Dear All
> >
> >How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
> >
> >Mostly, there are two sides encountered
> >a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial
> >investigated, hazardous properties of immersion
> >oil and other chemicals used. This supports
> >Glove Only policy
> >b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties,
> >users rely on protection and become more
> >careless and introduce more hazard than without
> >gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes
> >users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc
> >are not touched by someone else before with
> >gloves " who just ran a gel " etc
> >             This supports No Glove policy.
> >
> >I personally tend to believe that b) is a
> >serious problem, but cannot refute a): the
> >argument that core facilities belong to labs and
> >users are still not protected from known or
> >unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion
> >oil)
> >
> >So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or
> >No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope
> >not to open a can of worms ? Šor I just did..
> >
> >Of course I will consult NIH and other
> >guidelines too, but I am also interested in
> >practical aspects or any opinion / advice /
> >experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions /
> >comments
> >
> >Thanks
> >Axel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Note: This message may contain confidential
> >information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to
> >you by mistake, please notify the sender and
> >delete it immediately. Thank you.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary,
> confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any
> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you
> have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email
> and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check
> this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization
> accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this
> email.
> =================================
>

[Armstrong, Brian]

NO Gloves on microscope systems please!

If you are bringing something in the core that you need protection from, then you should not be bringing it into the core.
If you are trying to protect your sample, that is not going to work after you touch the keyboard etc..

If your gloves are dirty then you are going to transfer that "dirt" to the keyboard etc..
If your gloves are clean they will become dirty as soon as you touch the keyboard etc..

Therefore, there is no reason to wear gloves.

Brian D Armstrong PhD
Assistant Research Professor
Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute
City of Hope
Dept of Neuroscience
1450 E Duarte Rd
Duarte, CA 91010
626-256-4673 x62872

http://www.cityofhope.org/research/support/Light-Microscopy-Digital-Imaging/Pages/default.aspx


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Axel Kurt Preuss
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 12:36 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties ((I refer to use of non powdered gloves only).

Dear All

How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?

Mostly, there are two sides encountered
a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial investigated, hazardous properties of immersion oil and other chemicals used. This supports Glove Only policy
b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties, users rely on protection and become more careless and introduce more hazard than without gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc are not touched by someone else before with gloves “ who just ran a gel “ etc
            This supports No Glove policy.

I personally tend to believe that b) is a serious problem, but cannot refute a): the argument that core facilities belong to labs and users are still not protected from known or unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion oil)

So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope not to open a can of worms ☺ …or I just did..

Of course I will consult NIH and other guidelines too, but I am also interested in practical aspects or any opinion / advice / experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions / comments

Thanks
Axel











Note: This message may contain confidential information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to you by mistake, please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Thank you.


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[mcammer]

There's really not much point in discussing the glove issue.  People who wear gloves will continue to wear them.  When confronted, their responses prove that scientists are extremely superstitious or have an abundance of creativity when theorizing or expounding "truths".  Regardless of safety issues, people who don't wear gloves won't wear them.  And sometimes there are real medical reasons why people need to wear gloves.

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=================================

[Scott, Mark]

As far as I am concerned, (and i'm fairly sure it's general University policy), no-one should be using gloves on any communal computer.  A one-glove policy is fine, but then it is about making sure it is enforced (and understood) for all users.  As a general rule we tend to recommend users treat microscope rooms as a laboratory environment and wash their hands after use and obviously no eating or drinking in the room.  I guess it all comes down to what people are using on the microscopes and how careful they are not to have dangerous chemicals smeared all over their sample in the first place....

You should probably check your institutions particular policies to see what you can justify enforcing (or at least back you up on what you choose), but I personally do not like wearing gloves on the microscope or while using computers.  Clearly having to wear gloves to touch a sample then remove them before touching controls or keyboards then putting gloves back on is a big hassle and is more likely to lead to breaches of policy if you make it awkward for users.

Cheers
Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Axel Kurt Preuss
Sent: 21 September 2011 08:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties ((I refer to use of non powdered gloves only).

Dear All

How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?

Mostly, there are two sides encountered
a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial investigated, hazardous properties of immersion oil and other chemicals used. This supports Glove Only policy
b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties, users rely on protection and become more careless and introduce more hazard than without gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc are not touched by someone else before with gloves “ who just ran a gel “ etc
            This supports No Glove policy.

I personally tend to believe that b) is a serious problem, but cannot refute a): the argument that core facilities belong to labs and users are still not protected from known or unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion oil)

So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope not to open a can of worms ☺ …or I just did..

Of course I will consult NIH and other guidelines too, but I am also interested in practical aspects or any opinion / advice / experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions / comments

Thanks
Axel











Note: This message may contain confidential information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to you by mistake, please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Thank you.

[Guy Cox-2]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

My view is clear.  Absolutely no gloves when you use hazardous materials.  They have no reason to contact your skin, and if you don't use gloves you will make sure that they don't.  If you wear gloves I guarantee that the outside of the bottle will get contaminated.  If you don't, we can at least hope that self-preservation will kick in.  

                                  Guy

Optical Imaging Techniques in Cell Biology
by Guy Cox    CRC Press / Taylor & Francis
     http://www.guycox.com/optical.htm
______________________________________________
Associate Professor Guy Cox, MA, DPhil(Oxon)
Australian Centre for Microscopy & Microanalysis,
Madsen Building F09, University of Sydney, NSW 2006

Phone [phone]     Fax [phone]
             Mobile [phone]
______________________________________________
      http://www.guycox.net
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Z.J. Zhang
Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2011 12:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

The policy is embedded in the confocal training.

You can also put the policy on the operation manual. Tell your users that the next user (or victim) might be him/herself. Users would follow the rule (most of the time, like everything else). Science is a "dangerous" business, after all.

Zhaojie

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

And how do you enforce this?
-Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Z.J. Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

My simple rule with glove use is:

Absolutely NO gloves when you operate the microscope!!!

WEAR gloves when you deal with your sample, then take them off and throw them away. The contaminated gloves will contaminate the microscope and therefore to other users. If a user feels that the microscope is contaminated and unsafe to use, come talk to me. So far, it works pretty well.


Zhaojie

Zhaojie Zhang, Ph. D.
Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
University of Wyoming
Laramie, WY 82071
PHONE: [phone]
FAX: [phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tobias Baskin
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:43 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

Axel,
        In my opinion, gloves are widely misued
among scientists. They are not magic saftey
wands, rather they are a tool and like any other
can be used correctly and incorrectly. The idea
of a glove is two fold - first to protect the
equipment from the user. Second is to protect the
user from the equipment.

        Let's consider the first one first. With
high vacuum equpitment, such as an SEM, the oil
from one's fingers can contaminate the column, so
when handling the sample loader and so on, one
wears gloves to keep finger oil out of the
column. For light micrscopes, I have never heard
of finger oil damaging equipment short of folks
who put their thumb on the eyepiece.

        Now the second one. In science we
sometimes work with strong acids, viruses, what
have you that can damage us when they have
contact with skin. One prudently wears gloves
while handling such samples. But, and here is the
point that people forget, as soon as you are
finished handling those samples, you must remove
the gloves. Otherwise, you run the risk of moving
that harmful thing from your glove to whatever
else you touch with the glove (doorknobs, focus
knobs, etc) thereby contaminating the next user.
I see people running around the building with
gloves on. In this way, those gloves are speading
whatever dangerous thing that got on them all
around the building. I suppose this could be
countenanced if everyone wore gloves everywhere,
but that hardly seems like best practice. Instead
it is much more sensible to take off the gloves
as soon as you put the down the dangerous stuff.

        But in this connection one has to ask
what is dangerous in a microscopy lab? You wrote
immersion oil. I have never heard immersion oil
to be dangerous to the microscope user. Foregive
me but this sounds crazy. Of course if one drank
a bottle of immersion oil it would probably not
be good, but getting a trace on your skin is just
part of life.  You might hit your foot on the
door too. At a certain point we reach a risk
assymptote and that simply has to be accepted.
But even if you feel that all risks must be
mitigated and someone gets immersion oil on their
gloves, they are just going to spread it around
unless they remove their gloves after finishing
their oiling. Your facility might include
something more widely agreed on as dangerous,
like xylene for example, and the same thing goes:
wear gloves while handling the dangerous thing,
and take them off the moment you are finished.

        And lab coats? If a person is worried
about their clothing, then they can chose to wear
a coat. I for one am proud of the splotches of
tol blue that my shirts and trousers have
accumulated over the years. Good memories,
intersting colors. What's the problem with that?

        As ever,
                Tobias

>Dear All
>
>How is this issue handled these days in your microscopic core facilities?
>
>Mostly, there are two sides encountered
>a) Gloves protect from other users, labmaterial
>investigated, hazardous properties of immersion
>oil and other chemicals used. This supports
>Glove Only policy
>b) Once gloves are introduced in facilties,
>users rely on protection and become more
>careless and introduce more hazard than without
>gloves. Moreover, a strict no glove policy makes
>users confident that keyboards, mice, scopes etc
>are not touched by someone else before with
>gloves " who just ran a gel " etc
>             This supports No Glove policy.
>
>I personally tend to believe that b) is a
>serious problem, but cannot refute a): the
>argument that core facilities belong to labs and
>users are still not protected from known or
>unknown hazards in the facility (e.g. immersion
>oil)
>
>So either I ll enforce a strict Gloves Only or
>No Glove policy.  Same for labcoats etc. Hope
>not to open a can of worms ? Šor I just did..
>
>Of course I will consult NIH and other
>guidelines too, but I am also interested in
>practical aspects or any opinion / advice /
>experience / advocatus diaboli  ambitions /
>comments
>
>Thanks
>Axel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Note: This message may contain confidential
>information. If this Email/Fax has been sent to
>you by mistake, please notify the sender and
>delete it immediately. Thank you.

------------------------------------------------------------
This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
=================================

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[Julian Smith III]

*****
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http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

I'm on Guy's side here.  Learned it as a clumsy undergrad taking the EM
course, when I'd accidentally punctured my glove, then spilled OsO4,
then realized a half-hour later that my right index finger was black to
the second joint.  Self-preservation, indeed. . . .
Julian

On 9/22/11 5:35 AM, Guy Cox wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> My view is clear.  Absolutely no gloves when you use hazardous materials.  They have no reason to contact your skin, and if you don't use gloves you will make sure that they don't.  If you wear gloves I guarantee that the outside of the bottle will get contaminated.  If you don't, we can at least hope that self-preservation will kick in.
>
>                                    Guy
>
> Optical Imaging Techniques in Cell Biology
> by Guy Cox    CRC Press / Taylor&  Francis
>       http://www.guycox.com/optical.htm
> ______________________________________________
> Associate Professor Guy Cox, MA, DPhil(Oxon)
> Australian Centre for Microscopy&  Microanalysis,
> Madsen Building F09, University of Sydney, NSW 2006
>
> Phone [phone]     Fax [phone]
>               Mobile [phone]
> ______________________________________________
>        http://www.guycox.net
>  

--
Julian P.S. Smith III
Director, Winthrop Microscopy Facility
Dept. of Biology
Winthrop University
520 Cherry Rd.
Rock Hill, SC  29733

803-323-2111 x6427 (vox)
803-323-3448 (fax)
803-524-2347 (cell)
Research Website www.birdnest.org/smithj
Personal Website www.rociada-east.net

[Martin Wessendorf-2]

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*****

On 9/22/2011 4:35 AM, Guy Cox wrote:

> My view is clear.  Absolutely no gloves when you use hazardous materials.  They have no reason to contact your skin, and if you don't use gloves you will make sure that they don't.  If you wear gloves I guarantee that the outside of the bottle will get contaminated.  If you don't, we can at least hope that self-preservation will kick in.

Dear Guy--

I've never before heard anyone articulate such a policy and I personally
don't feel comfortable with it.  Like bike helmets, climbing ropes and
seat-belts, gloves are for accidents.

That said, Julian Smith raises a very interesting issue about mis-use of
gloves: of not immediately removing them and changing to clean gloves if
there's been any possibility of contamination.

Martin Wessendorf

--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]

[Scott, Mark]

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*****

I think the point is that accidents should be happening in the LAB and not on the microscope.  If users are aware there are no gloves allowed in the microscope room and the potential dangers TO THEMSELVES then they might be more careful at what they "allow" to drip onto the outside of their containers and thus other users will be at less of a risk...if they are allowed to wear gloves in the microscope room then "they are safe so who cares about everyone else" seems to be a commonly adopted attitude....and having people at risk simply going onto a computer to collect data (which they normally wouldn't wear gloves for) isn't ideal either.

Cheers
Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Wessendorf
Sent: 22 September 2011 15:11
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

On 9/22/2011 4:35 AM, Guy Cox wrote:

> My view is clear.  Absolutely no gloves when you use hazardous materials.  They have no reason to contact your skin, and if you don't use gloves you will make sure that they don't.  If you wear gloves I guarantee that the outside of the bottle will get contaminated.  If you don't, we can at least hope that self-preservation will kick in.

Dear Guy--

I've never before heard anyone articulate such a policy and I personally
don't feel comfortable with it.  Like bike helmets, climbing ropes and
seat-belts, gloves are for accidents.

That said, Julian Smith raises a very interesting issue about mis-use of
gloves: of not immediately removing them and changing to clean gloves if
there's been any possibility of contamination.

Martin Wessendorf

--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]

[Guy Cox-2]

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Martin,

          Before we took that line you could guarantee that our
embedding resin bottles would be contaminated and dangerous to touch.
This is very dangerous and quite unfair to anyone else working in the
lab.  To me it is only common sense that a securely stoppered bottle in
a lab MUST be safe to pick up, and prior to the 'no gloves' policy that
was not the case. Of course you wear gloves when you have to contact
something hazardous, but if no contact is required then it is much safer
for the whole lab if you don't wear gloves.  Why should everyone else's
safety be put at risk just so that you can be sloppy?

                                                    Guy

Optical Imaging Techniques in Cell Biology
by Guy Cox    CRC Press / Taylor & Francis
     http://www.guycox.com/optical.htm
______________________________________________
Associate Professor Guy Cox, MA, DPhil(Oxon)
Australian Centre for Microscopy & Microanalysis,
Madsen Building F09, University of Sydney, NSW 2006

Phone [phone]     Fax [phone]
             Mobile [phone]
______________________________________________
      http://www.guycox.net
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Martin Wessendorf
Sent: Friday, 23 September 2011 12:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Glove or No Glove Policy in Core facilties

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On 9/22/2011 4:35 AM, Guy Cox wrote:

> My view is clear.  Absolutely no gloves when you use hazardous
materials.  They have no reason to contact your skin, and if you don't
use gloves you will make sure that they don't.  If you wear gloves I
guarantee that the outside of the bottle will get contaminated.  If you
don't, we can at least hope that self-preservation will kick in.

Dear Guy--

I've never before heard anyone articulate such a policy and I personally

don't feel comfortable with it.  Like bike helmets, climbing ropes and
seat-belts, gloves are for accidents.

That said, Julian Smith raises a very interesting issue about mis-use of

gloves: of not immediately removing them and changing to clean gloves if

there's been any possibility of contamination.

Martin Wessendorf

--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
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Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]

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