John Oreopoulos |
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Hi all, I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there any table of values out there in the literature? And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they come from and how they were measured: glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 water ~1.3326 inside cells ~ 1.38 Thanks! John Oreopoulos |
Glen MacDonald-2 |
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ John, Look at Dirkxx etal, J Biomedical Optics, 10(4), 2005 for a start. the coverglass values come from the glass manufacturers and is stated for a single line at 20 deg. C. Another issue is the effect of cross-linking fixatives on RI. Regards, Glen Glen MacDonald Core for Communication Research Virginia Merrill Bloedel Hearing Research Center Box 357923 University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195-7923 USA (206) 616-4156 [hidden email] On Sep 14, 2010, at 8:34 AM, John Oreopoulos wrote: > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > Hi all, > > I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. > > I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there any table of values out there in the literature? > > And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they come from and how they were measured: > > glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 > water ~1.3326 > inside cells ~ 1.38 > > Thanks! > > John Oreopoulos |
Jennifer Reiber Kyle |
In reply to this post by John Oreopoulos
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ John, A great source for RI information is "Optical Clearing of Tissues and Blood" by V. Tuchin. This book lists many different sources for RI of tissue and cell components and also how processing affects these values. Jennifer Reiber Kyle Ph.D. Candidate Department of Electrical Engineering University of California Riverside On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:34 AM, John Oreopoulos <[hidden email]> wrote: > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > Hi all, > > I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. > > I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there any table of values out there in the literature? > > And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they come from and how they were measured: > > glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 > water ~1.3326 > inside cells ~ 1.38 > > Thanks! > > John Oreopoulos |
Craig Brideau |
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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I wrote my Master's thesis on this very topic:
http://www.dal.worldcat.org/title/low-coherence-light-for-measuring-optical-properties-of-biological-systems/oclc/437599652&referer=brief_results Not my best work, but enjoy! Craig On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Jennifer Reiber Kyle <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Rosemary.White |
In reply to this post by Jennifer Reiber Kyle
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Another good source for organics and inorganics is the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Not so good for cell components..... cheers, Rosemary Rosemary White CSIRO Plant Industry GPO Box 1600 Canberra, ACT 2601 Australia T 61 2 6246 5475 F 61 2 6246 5334 E [hidden email] On 15/09/10 2:25 AM, "Jennifer Reiber Kyle" <[hidden email]> wrote: > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > John, > > A great source for RI information is "Optical Clearing of Tissues and > Blood" by V. Tuchin. This book lists many different sources for RI of > tissue and cell components and also how processing affects these > values. > > Jennifer Reiber Kyle > Ph.D. Candidate > Department of Electrical Engineering > University of California Riverside > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:34 AM, John Oreopoulos > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> ============================================================ >> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: >> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy >> ============================================================ >> >> Hi all, >> >> I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools >> available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, >> etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous >> media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. >> >> I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I >> believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but >> again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by >> imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about >> quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very >> complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a >> basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on >> these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to >> sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to >> find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there >> any table of values out there in the literature? >> >> And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that >> usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think >> these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they >> come from and how they were measured: >> >> glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 >> water ~1.3326 >> inside cells ~ 1.38 >> >> Thanks! >> >> John Oreopoulos |
Jeremy Adler-3 |
In reply to this post by Glen MacDonald-2
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Perfusing media containing cells with roller pumps has the potential to damage suspended cells - does anyone have any quantitation or refs. |
Johannes Helm |
In reply to this post by John Oreopoulos
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Good afternoon, a comparatively simple method might be to actually measure the refractive index, at least of the mounting medium, using an Abbé B refractometer. Most institutes with a chemistry department will have one. It's a device, which you can easily carry to your own lab, if you get it on loan. The main problem with older Abbé refractometers is that they may be limited to one wavelength, only. Other refractometers, which overcome this problem, are of the Pulfrich or the Michelson type, though they are much more cumbersome to use. Best wishes, Johannes Helm > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > Hi all, > > I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools > available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, > etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the > aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. > > I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I > believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but > again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by > imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about > quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very > complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a > basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on > these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to > sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to > find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are > there any table of values out there in the literature? > > And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers > that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? > I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know > where they come from and how they were measured: > > glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 > water ~1.3326 > inside cells ~ 1.38 > > Thanks! > > John Oreopoulos -- P. Johannes Helm, M.Sc. PhD Seniorengineer CMBN University of Oslo Institute of Basic Medical Science Department of Anatomy Postboks 1105 - Blindern NO-0317 Oslo Voice: +47 228 51159 Fax: +47 228 51499 WWW: folk.uio.no/jhelm |
In reply to this post by John Oreopoulos
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Hi John For liquid media you can use reflection from a spherical lens immersed in the liquid whose n you want to measure. (Model, M.A., Khitrin A.K. and Blank J.L. Measurement of the absorption of concentrated dyes and their use for quantitative imaging of surface topography. J. Microsc. 231:156-167) Most measurements of n on cells and organelles that I know of produced values from 1.35 to 1.45 Mike -----Original Message----- From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Oreopoulos Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:34 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Index of refraction of aqueous media and/or cell interior ============================================================ To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Hi all, I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there any table of values out there in the literature? And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they come from and how they were measured: glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 water ~1.3326 inside cells ~ 1.38 Thanks! John Oreopoulos |
Johannes-P. Koch |
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ John, I do not know whether this might help you, but... Do you really need to measure the RI using your microscope??? Typically, the RI (for any kind of liquid or solid stuff) is measured using a refractometer (Snell's law). Since the RI is temperature-dependent, you have to correct for that as well, but there are interpolation formulae available (for small scale interpolation, i.e. a few degrees). Presumably, you can measure the RI of a cell suspension as well - however, your result will be the average of the RIs and you won't have spatial resolution. Again, I do not know whether this might help you, but I am sure that this method is widely used and has also been used for determining the values you indicated for water, glass,... Best regards, Johannes Am 15.09.2010 15:22, schrieb MODEL, MICHAEL: > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > Hi John > > For liquid media you can use reflection from a spherical lens immersed in the liquid whose n you want to measure. (Model, M.A., Khitrin A.K. and Blank J.L. Measurement of the absorption of concentrated dyes and their use for quantitative imaging of surface topography. J. Microsc. 231:156-167) > > Most measurements of n on cells and organelles that I know of produced values from 1.35 to 1.45 > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Oreopoulos > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:34 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Index of refraction of aqueous media and/or cell interior > > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > Hi all, > > I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. > > I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there any table of values out there in the literature? > > And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they come from and how they were measured: > > glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 > water ~1.3326 > inside cells ~ 1.38 > > Thanks! > > John Oreopoulos > -- Mag. Johannes-P. KOCH Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology MFPL, University of Vienna Dr. Bohrgasse 9/5 A-1030 Vienna Austria phone: 0043 1 4277 52809 fax: 0043 1 4277 9528 mail to: [hidden email] |
Rietdorf, Jens |
In reply to this post by John Oreopoulos
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Hi John, just as an idea, TIR measurements should work as the critical angle depends on the ratio of refractive indices at the glass-medium interface. The critical angle is easy to spot by the reflection of the laser in an objective type TIR setup. Essentially it should also work at a lipid bilayer-intracellular fluid interface, but I guess that is technically more demanding. Cheers, jens -----Original Message----- From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Oreopoulos Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 17:34 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Index of refraction of aqueous media and/or cell interior ============================================================ To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Hi all, I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are there any table of values out there in the literature? And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know where they come from and how they were measured: glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 water ~1.3326 inside cells ~ 1.38 Thanks! John Oreopoulos |
In reply to this post by Johannes Helm
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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ If you can accurately control all other parameters you could just measure the RI using the correction collar on a water immersion lens. High precision coverslips, of course, and standardised thickness of liquid (thin plastic shim?) then calibrate with standard solutions. Bit of work but no extra equipment. There are tables for refractive indices of sugar solutions since it's used in the food and wine industry - there may also be tables for salt solutions. Very lightly smoke the slide and scratch to form a few small black bits (other methods could work) and correct SA with given solution. Guy Optical Imaging Techniques in Cell Biology by Guy Cox CRC Press / Taylor & Francis http://www.guycox.com/optical.htm ______________________________________________ Associate Professor Guy Cox, MA, DPhil(Oxon) Australian Centre for Microscopy & Microanalysis, Madsen Building F09, University of Sydney, NSW 2006 Phone +61 2 9351 3176 Fax +61 2 9351 7682 Mobile 0413 281 861 ______________________________________________ http://www.guycox.net -----Original Message----- From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of P. Johannes Helm Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2010 8:17 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: Index of refraction of aqueous media and/or cell interior ============================================================ To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy ============================================================ Good afternoon, a comparatively simple method might be to actually measure the refractive index, at least of the mounting medium, using an Abbé B refractometer. Most institutes with a chemistry department will have one. It's a device, which you can easily carry to your own lab, if you get it on loan. The main problem with older Abbé refractometers is that they may be limited to one wavelength, only. Other refractometers, which overcome this problem, are of the Pulfrich or the Michelson type, though they are much more cumbersome to use. Best wishes, Johannes Helm > ============================================================ > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to: > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy > ============================================================ > > Hi all, > > I was just wondering if there is a simple method using basic imaging tools > available with most research microscopes (DIC, phase contrast, confocal, > etc.) to quantitatively determine the index of refraction of of the > aqueous media in your imaging chamber or even in the cell interior. > > I know that the index of refraction inside the cell is not uniform, and I > believe that several modes of imaging actually depend on this fact, but > again, is there a way to quantitate this (and possibly map it in 2D by > imaging)? I remember I had seen some papers a few years ago about > quantitative phase contrast microscopy, but this is likely something very > complicated with non-traditional optics (ie: not something you'd find in a > basic microscope). I just need something quick and easy to get a handle on > these numbers in real samples and to see how much they vary from sample to > sample. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to > find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? Are > there any table of values out there in the literature? > > And for reference, can someone point me to a good source of the numbers > that usually get quoted for glass (coverslips), water, and cell interiors? > I think these are typical values that are commonly used, but I don't know > where they come from and how they were measured: > > glass (used in coverslips): ~1.523 > water ~1.3326 > inside cells ~ 1.38 > > Thanks! > > John Oreopoulos -- P. Johannes Helm, M.Sc. PhD Seniorengineer CMBN University of Oslo Institute of Basic Medical Science Department of Anatomy Postboks 1105 - Blindern NO-0317 Oslo Voice: +47 228 51159 Fax: +47 228 51499 WWW: folk.uio.no/jhelm |
George McNamara |
In reply to this post by John Oreopoulos
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Hi John,
Someplace in the middle of Multi-Probe Microscopy, http://home.earthlink.net/~mpmicro/mpmicro.zip is a long section on refractive index of cells and media. Search for the phrase Johnsen and Widder (1999) (their table 1) list (it is on page 621 of the version I pulled up on my PC. No edits in a while - I moved from Sacramento in 2007). PubMed - try searching for: suhling refractive index See also www.iatia.com.au for example, Refractive index measurement in viable cells using quantitative phase-amplitude microscopy and confocal microscopy. Curl CL, Bellair CJ, Harris T, Allman BE, Harris PJ, Stewart AG, Roberts A, Nugent KA, Delbridge LM. Cytometry A. 2005 May;65(1):88-92.PMID: 15800856 Graham Dunn published DRIMAS, for dry mass of cells (just subtract water): J Cell Sci. 1989 Mar;92 ( Pt 3):379-89. Microinterferometry of the movement of dry matter in fibroblasts.Brown AF, Dunn GA.Q. How much variation in the index of refraction would one expect to find in cells, and is this cell type and/or environment dependent? A. Yes, every cytoplasm -> membrane -> lumen, is two changes in RI. Cells with lots of vesicles, pancreatic beta cells for example, scatter lots of light (bonus: insulin zinc granules may be practically protein crystals, potentially RI > 1.5). Enjoy, George At 11:34 AM 9/14/2010, you wrote: ============================================================ George McNamara, Ph.D. Image Core Manager Analytical Imaging Core Facility University of Miami, Miller School of Medicine Miami, FL 33136 [hidden email] [hidden email] 305-243-8436 office http://www.sylvester.org/AICF (Analytical Imaging Core Facility) http://www.sylvester.org/AICF/pubspectra.zip (the entire 2000+ spectra .xlsx file is in the zip file) http://home.earthlink.net/~geomcnamara |
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