Leica SP8 confocal Windows 10 upgrade

[Csúcs Gábor-3]

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Dear All,

Probably a couple of you face the same challenge: Due to university IT security regulations we want to switch our Leica SP8 confocals to Windows 10. Obviously, we have first asked Leica to do this upgrade but they do it only if we purchase (obviously from them) also a new (very expensive) computer. My question to you is, whether you have experienced the same issue or is this strategy country specific? Did anyone of you manage to make the Windows 10 upgrade without the involvement of Leica?

Thanks Gabor

[Mark Scott-2]

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Hi Gabor,

We recently upgraded our SP8 STED system to Windows 10 but as you say, this was only possible with a brand new PC – for us this wasn’t an issue since we were upgrading our setup to have FALCON as well but I agree, it is an expensive option just to satisfy IT security requirements.

I’ve seen this with most companies, they are reluctant to allow any changes from their pre-configured setup, (hardware upgrades, OS upgrades or even security patches are frowned upon), as they can’t verify that it will work.  They want a very specific hardware configuration that they have tested.  We are looking to upgrade ours also but more for speed of network transfer utilising SMB3 protocols.

What I would suggest is get in touch with your IT people, get them to make a full shadow-copy image of the SP8 PC and then try installing Windows 10, if it doesn’t work then revert back to the copy you made.  Double check with Leica of course, but we are starting to see a lot of push back from IT to get vendors to start and upgrade to Windows 10 - they need to be aware of this since Windows 7 will stop being supported by Microsoft very shortly (after a years reprieve anyway).

Sadly, no immediate solution other than to just give it a try.

Mark

_______________________________________
 
Mark Scott
Senior Microscopist
Institute of Molecular Bioscience
Level 6 North, 306 Carmody Road (Building 80)
The University of Queensland
Brisbane, Queensland, 4072, Australia
https://imb.uq.edu.au/microscopy
[hidden email]
 
 



On 5/2/19, 10:30 pm, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Csúcs  Gábor" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

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    *****
   
    Dear All,
   
    Probably a couple of you face the same challenge: Due to university IT security regulations we want to switch our Leica SP8 confocals to Windows 10. Obviously, we have first asked Leica to do this upgrade but they do it only if we purchase (obviously from them) also a new (very expensive) computer. My question to you is, whether you have experienced the same issue or is this strategy country specific? Did anyone of you manage to make the Windows 10 upgrade without the involvement of Leica?
   
    Thanks Gabor
   

[daj1u06]

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Might be worth calling your IT Department's bluff and seeing as they are insisting on a change to what is a fully working system, they have to fund it (it ain't broke, don't fix it).

If you are happy with win 7, a solution could be to firewall the existing PC off from the network using a dedicated router with a built in firewall, or take it off network entirely and only allow facility-screened and issued USB media to take off data. We have these solutions for some of our EMs which are still on win2000!!!!

The real issue here is the massive markup that the instrument suppliers make on these PCs. When our SP5 computer motherboard died several years ago, we built our own PC using exactly the same internal components bought individually for <10 percent of the price we were being asked a new PC (many bought second hand). Leica weren't happy but did eventually agree to support the system with the homebuild PC. So would need someone with a leica approved win 10 machine to run something like CPUID on it and post the report to see exactly what the components are, plus the model numbers of any I/O cards.

Dave Johnston,
Biomedical Imaging Unit,
Southampton.

[Ralf Palmisano]

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Dear all,

in fact this is the policy with most big microscopy brands. Its a money
making machine and rip-off, whereas it always comes in the disguise of:
Dear customer, we have to sell you a new workstations for three or four
times the money worth it, as we do have contracts with HP or whoever and
they just do a Leica, Zeiss and so on pre-configured image on the machine.

Eventually we should tackle this issue in making this behaviour more
known to the funding societys in the different countries, they can put
pressure on the business in requesting a guaranteed support for the IT
software (normally Windows) for the life time of the microscope, no
matter what hardware as long as its support the technical reqierements,
otherwise funding would not be possible.

Apart from this, I tried once a full shadow-copy. It did not work, as
hard and softlinks will be different...

Best Ralf

Am 05/02/2019 um 13:21 schrieb Csúcs Gábor:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear All,
>
> Probably a couple of you face the same challenge: Due to university IT security regulations we want to switch our Leica SP8 confocals to Windows 10. Obviously, we have first asked Leica to do this upgrade but they do it only if we purchase (obviously from them) also a new (very expensive) computer. My question to you is, whether you have experienced the same issue or is this strategy country specific? Did anyone of you manage to make the Windows 10 upgrade without the involvement of Leica?
>
> Thanks Gabor

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine

Speaker Scientific Advisory Board "German Society for Microscopy and Image Analysis"
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Science

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Secretary)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de

[Steffen Dietzel]

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Similar situation here with an SP8 upgrade, but we already had the big
computer before (running Win7). Still, there was no upgrade to Win 10,
but a reinstallation. This came with two (so far discovered) drawbacks:

Obviously all users have to be recreated. (so make sure you save their
settings)

Not so obviously, the system id for SVI Huygens (came with Hyvolution at
the time) changed so that our license was not valid any more.

So, for other systems my plan is to make a full computer backup, update
to Win 10 myself and see if it is going to work. If not I'll restore to
Win 7 and see what to do. Since Microsoft Windows 7 support will run out
in January 2020, I figure this is something to do in fall. As others, I
would very much like to hear about success or no success with that strategy.

Concerning the "ripp-off" allegations about computer prices, don't you
think there is a reason why large companies with huge IT departments are
happy to pay the extra money? If they weren't those product lines with
longt-term-stable hardware (not putting in a different component every
other month) wouldn't even exist. Of course you can built your own PC to
run a microscope which would be much cheaper. But only if it immediately
works. If you have to go bug hunting for a month, your lost time and
salary will hopefully be worth more than the higher price for a computer
that is known to work. I guess on average the do-it-yourself approach is
only cheaper if you don't consider costs for you one time.

Best

Steffen


Am 06.02.2019 um 00:40 schrieb Mark Scott:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Gabor,
>
> We recently upgraded our SP8 STED system to Windows 10 but as you say, this was only possible with a brand new PC – for us this wasn’t an issue since we were upgrading our setup to have FALCON as well but I agree, it is an expensive option just to satisfy IT security requirements.
>
> I’ve seen this with most companies, they are reluctant to allow any changes from their pre-configured setup, (hardware upgrades, OS upgrades or even security patches are frowned upon), as they can’t verify that it will work.  They want a very specific hardware configuration that they have tested.  We are looking to upgrade ours also but more for speed of network transfer utilising SMB3 protocols.
>
> What I would suggest is get in touch with your IT people, get them to make a full shadow-copy image of the SP8 PC and then try installing Windows 10, if it doesn’t work then revert back to the copy you made.  Double check with Leica of course, but we are starting to see a lot of push back from IT to get vendors to start and upgrade to Windows 10 - they need to be aware of this since Windows 7 will stop being supported by Microsoft very shortly (after a years reprieve anyway).
>
> Sadly, no immediate solution other than to just give it a try.
>
> Mark
>
> _______________________________________
>  
> Mark Scott
> Senior Microscopist
> Institute of Molecular Bioscience
> Level 6 North, 306 Carmody Road (Building 80)
> The University of Queensland
> Brisbane, Queensland, 4072, Australia
> https://imb.uq.edu.au/microscopy
> [hidden email]
>  
>  
>
>
>
> On 5/2/19, 10:30 pm, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Csúcs  Gábor" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>      *****
>      To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>      http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>      Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>      *****
>      
>      Dear All,
>      
>      Probably a couple of you face the same challenge: Due to university IT security regulations we want to switch our Leica SP8 confocals to Windows 10. Obviously, we have first asked Leica to do this upgrade but they do it only if we purchase (obviously from them) also a new (very expensive) computer. My question to you is, whether you have experienced the same issue or is this strategy country specific? Did anyone of you manage to make the Windows 10 upgrade without the involvement of Leica?
>      
>      Thanks Gabor
>      
>

--
------------------------------------------------------------
Steffen Dietzel, PD Dr. rer. nat
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Biomedical Center (BMC)
Head of the Core Facility Bioimaging

Großhaderner Straße 9
D-82152 Planegg-Martinsried
Germany

http://www.bioimaging.bmc.med.uni-muenchen.de

[Ralf Palmisano]

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Dear Steffen,

I think it is fair to pay for development and incorporation of a vendors
software and to address all your mentioned issues. Still as most of us
are working in this field, a prize for a new workstation 3  - 4 times
higher than if you would by that workstation yourself from HP is
unreasonable. And I cant see most of hte imaging facilities or
institutes in Europe are large companies with huge IT departments. And
further I am not sure if facilities that delivered themselfs to only one
vendor do not have a conflict of interest for speaking up on some
issues, at least not mentioning which vendor is their solemn supplier.

Best wishes

RAlf

Am 06/02/2019 um 10:41 schrieb Steffen Dietzel:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Similar situation here with an SP8 upgrade, but we already had the big
> computer before (running Win7). Still, there was no upgrade to Win 10,
> but a reinstallation. This came with two (so far discovered) drawbacks:
>
> Obviously all users have to be recreated. (so make sure you save their
> settings)
>
> Not so obviously, the system id for SVI Huygens (came with Hyvolution
> at the time) changed so that our license was not valid any more.
>
> So, for other systems my plan is to make a full computer backup,
> update to Win 10 myself and see if it is going to work. If not I'll
> restore to Win 7 and see what to do. Since Microsoft Windows 7 support
> will run out in January 2020, I figure this is something to do in
> fall. As others, I would very much like to hear about success or no
> success with that strategy.
>
> Concerning the "ripp-off" allegations about computer prices, don't you
> think there is a reason why large companies with huge IT departments
> are happy to pay the extra money? If they weren't those product lines
> with longt-term-stable hardware (not putting in a different component
> every other month) wouldn't even exist. Of course you can built your
> own PC to run a microscope which would be much cheaper. But only if it
> immediately works. If you have to go bug hunting for a month, your
> lost time and salary will hopefully be worth more than the higher
> price for a computer that is known to work. I guess on average the
> do-it-yourself approach is only cheaper if you don't consider costs
> for you one time.
>
> Best
>
> Steffen
>
>
> Am 06.02.2019 um 00:40 schrieb Mark Scott:
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
>> posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Hi Gabor,
>>
>> We recently upgraded our SP8 STED system to Windows 10 but as you
>> say, this was only possible with a brand new PC – for us this wasn’t
>> an issue since we were upgrading our setup to have FALCON as well but
>> I agree, it is an expensive option just to satisfy IT security
>> requirements.
>>
>> I’ve seen this with most companies, they are reluctant to allow any
>> changes from their pre-configured setup, (hardware upgrades, OS
>> upgrades or even security patches are frowned upon), as they can’t
>> verify that it will work.  They want a very specific hardware
>> configuration that they have tested.  We are looking to upgrade ours
>> also but more for speed of network transfer utilising SMB3 protocols.
>>
>> What I would suggest is get in touch with your IT people, get them to
>> make a full shadow-copy image of the SP8 PC and then try installing
>> Windows 10, if it doesn’t work then revert back to the copy you
>> made.  Double check with Leica of course, but we are starting to see
>> a lot of push back from IT to get vendors to start and upgrade to
>> Windows 10 - they need to be aware of this since Windows 7 will stop
>> being supported by Microsoft very shortly (after a years reprieve
>> anyway).
>>
>> Sadly, no immediate solution other than to just give it a try.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> _______________________________________
>>   Mark Scott
>> Senior Microscopist
>> Institute of Molecular Bioscience
>> Level 6 North, 306 Carmody Road (Building 80)
>> The University of Queensland
>> Brisbane, Queensland, 4072, Australia
>> https://imb.uq.edu.au/microscopy
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/2/19, 10:30 pm, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Csúcs 
>> Gábor" <[hidden email] on behalf of
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>      *****
>>      To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>      http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>>      Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
>> posting.
>>      *****
>>           Dear All,
>>           Probably a couple of you face the same challenge: Due to
>> university IT security regulations we want to switch our Leica SP8
>> confocals to Windows 10. Obviously, we have first asked Leica to do
>> this upgrade but they do it only if we purchase (obviously from them)
>> also a new (very expensive) computer. My question to you is, whether
>> you have experienced the same issue or is this strategy country
>> specific? Did anyone of you manage to make the Windows 10 upgrade
>> without the involvement of Leica?
>>           Thanks            Gabor
>>

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine

Speaker Scientific Advisory Board "German Society for Microscopy and Image Analysis"
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Science

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Secretary)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de

[Martin Spitaler-2]

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Dear Gabor,

   maybe you can convince your IT to hold on to Win7 to the end of the year; as Mark already mentioned, Microsoft is officially ending its support for Win7 on 14 Jan 2020, so Leica will have to come up with a solution before then. And luckily, Leica are less likely (compared to other companies) to tell you to disconnet your computer from the network, because they need the network for their Remote Care. It won't hurt though if you (and all of us affected) keep asking Leica for the solution (and the same is true for all other manufacturers, of course).
  With regard to the costs of a new workstation, a few years ago I also tried to get one cheaper elsewhere, but it turned out it wouldn't have been that much cheaper after all. The performance can be bought much cheaper easily, but it's all the slots and connectors to control the hardware that drive the price up. I ended up going through Leica in the end, the saving wasn't worth the risk of potential troubles due to incompatible drivers etc.

Best wishes,

Martin

________________________________________
Martin Spitaler, PhD
Head of the
Imaging Facility
Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry
Am Klopferspitz 18
82152 Martinsried
Germany
Tel: [phone]
E-mail: [hidden email]
Website: http://www.biochem.mpg.de/en/facilities/imaging 

[Ralf Palmisano]

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Dear Martin,

of course I am talking of exactly the same HP Z8xx Workstations, that
came at a prize of just about 1.800 € sold by HP directly and even if
you include one or two additional connecting cards, you won't exceed
2.500 €. Which you know, so please don't put words into someones mouth
he never said, not even ment.

Best wishes,

Ralf

Am 06/02/2019 um 12:32 schrieb Martin Spitaler:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Gabor,
>
>     maybe you can convince your IT to hold on to Win7 to the end of the year; as Mark already mentioned, Microsoft is officially ending its support for Win7 on 14 Jan 2020, so Leica will have to come up with a solution before then. And luckily, Leica are less likely (compared to other companies) to tell you to disconnet your computer from the network, because they need the network for their Remote Care. It won't hurt though if you (and all of us affected) keep asking Leica for the solution (and the same is true for all other manufacturers, of course).
>    With regard to the costs of a new workstation, a few years ago I also tried to get one cheaper elsewhere, but it turned out it wouldn't have been that much cheaper after all. The performance can be bought much cheaper easily, but it's all the slots and connectors to control the hardware that drive the price up. I ended up going through Leica in the end, the saving wasn't worth the risk of potential troubles due to incompatible drivers etc.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Martin
>
> ________________________________________
> Martin Spitaler, PhD
> Head of the
> Imaging Facility
> Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry
> Am Klopferspitz 18
> 82152 Martinsried
> Germany
> Tel: [phone]
> E-mail: [hidden email]
> Website: http://www.biochem.mpg.de/en/facilities/imaging

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine

Speaker Scientific Advisory Board "German Society for Microscopy and Image Analysis"
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Science

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Secretary)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de

[daj1u06]

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Maybe I should have made it clear, when I built our own SP5 PC, it wasn't just the same overall spec it was identical components (excepting the case and power supply)  sourced individually, many secondhand and it took very little effort to install windows and the software so even factoring in my time it was maybe 10-20% of the cost, and a lot of confidence gained in the experience.

Dave Johnston,
Biomedical Imaging,
Southampton.