Lumencore experience/alternative

[Arne Seitz]

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Dear all,

in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace mercury burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble with one the instruments last year although we were way below the guaranteed (and massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We repaired the light source at our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again. However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.

Therefore my three questions:
- Do others have similar problems with this product?
- Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for the model we purchased end 2013?
- Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.

Thanks for your feedback in advance.

Best
Arne

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Arne Seitz
Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP)
Swiss Institute of Technology (EPFL)
Faculty of Life Sciences
Station 15
CH-1015 Lausanne

Phone: [phone]
Fax:      [phone]
http://biop.epfl.ch/
---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Csúcs Gábor-3]

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Dear Arne,

Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years after the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to CoolLed. We have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we purchased it just after CoolLed started its production) and that setup didn't need any maintenance over the years. Of course, statistically this is just one case/instrument.

Greetings Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative

*****
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*****

Dear all,

in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace mercury burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble with one the instruments last year although we were way below the guaranteed (and massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We repaired the light source at our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again. However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.

Therefore my three questions:
- Do others have similar problems with this product?
- Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for the model we purchased end 2013?
- Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.

Thanks for your feedback in advance.

Best
Arne

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Arne Seitz
Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
CH-1015 Lausanne

Phone: [phone]
Fax:      [phone]
http://biop.epfl.ch/
---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Periasamy, Ammasi (ap3t)-2]

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I myself have used X-Cite systems since early 2000s.
They have been doing light sources for over 30 years now (first lamp now LED), and their customer service and tech team is very helpful.
(Excelitas Technologies Corp.)
 No commercial interest.

Dr. Ammasi Periasamy
Professor & Center Director,
WM Keck Center for Cellular Imaging,
Departments of Biology and Biomedical Engineering,
Univeristy of Virginia,
409 McCormick Rd., Charlottesville, VA 22903, USA.

http://www.kcci.virginia.edu/people/profile/ap3t
Phone: [phone] or 982-4869
Fax: [phone]
E-mail: [hidden email]

FRET/FLIM Workshop-March 5-9, 2018: http://www.kcci.virginia.edu/workshop 

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Csúcs Gábor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 12:48 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Lumencore experience/alternative

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Dear Arne,

Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years after the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to CoolLed. We have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we purchased it just after CoolLed started its production) and that setup didn't need any maintenance over the years. Of course, statistically this is just one case/instrument.

Greetings Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative

*****
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*****

Dear all,

in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace mercury burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble with one the instruments last year although we were way below the guaranteed (and massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We repaired the light source at our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again. However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.

Therefore my three questions:
- Do others have similar problems with this product?
- Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for the model we purchased end 2013?
- Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.

Thanks for your feedback in advance.

Best
Arne

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Arne Seitz
Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
CH-1015 Lausanne

Phone: [phone]
Fax:      [phone]
http://biop.epfl.ch/
---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Benjamin Smith]

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Is there a particular reason you went with an LED?  Metal-halide lamps with
a quality burner last well over 2000 hours, and have a very high power
density.

-Ben Smith

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Csúcs Gábor <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Arne,
>
> Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as
> typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years after
> the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to CoolLed. We
> have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we purchased it just
> after CoolLed started its production) and that setup didn't need any
> maintenance over the years. Of course, statistically this is just one
> case/instrument.
>
> Greetings                       Gabor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear all,
>
> in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace mercury
> burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble with one the
> instruments last year although we were way below the guaranteed (and
> massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We repaired the light source at
> our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again.
> However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to
> repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.
>
> Therefore my three questions:
> - Do others have similar problems with this product?
> - Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for the
> model we purchased end 2013?
> - Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.
>
> Thanks for your feedback in advance.
>
> Best
> Arne
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Arne Seitz
> Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of
> Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
> Phone: [phone]
> Fax:      [phone]
> http://biop.epfl.ch/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

--
Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
University of California, Berkeley
195 Life Sciences Addition
Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
Tel  [phone]
Fax [phone]
e-mail: [hidden email]
http://vision.berkeley.edu/?page_id=5635 <http://vision.berkeley.edu/>

[Csúcs Gábor-3]

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*****

Dear Ben,

I can't comment on the choice of Arne but in our case LEDs have the nice advantage that they don't need a mechanical shutter and (theoretically) their lifetime should be also longer. For most of the higher NA applications, their power is fully sufficient, the only application where we still "need" to use metal-halide lamps are very low mag. Imaging projects (1x-4x).

Greetings Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Benjamin E Smith
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Lumencore experience/alternative

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Is there a particular reason you went with an LED?  Metal-halide lamps with a quality burner last well over 2000 hours, and have a very high power density.

-Ben Smith

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Csúcs Gábor <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Arne,
>
> Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as
> typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years
> after the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to
> CoolLed. We have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we
> purchased it just after CoolLed started its production) and that setup
> didn't need any maintenance over the years. Of course, statistically
> this is just one case/instrument.
>
> Greetings                       Gabor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear all,
>
> in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace
> mercury burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble
> with one the instruments last year although we were way below the
> guaranteed (and massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We
> repaired the light source at our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again.
> However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to
> repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.
>
> Therefore my three questions:
> - Do others have similar problems with this product?
> - Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for
> the model we purchased end 2013?
> - Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.
>
> Thanks for your feedback in advance.
>
> Best
> Arne
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Arne Seitz
> Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of
> Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
> Phone: [phone]
> Fax:      [phone]
> http://biop.epfl.ch/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

--
Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
University of California, Berkeley
195 Life Sciences Addition
Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
Tel  [phone]
Fax [phone]
e-mail: [hidden email]
http://vision.berkeley.edu/?page_id=5635 <http://vision.berkeley.edu/>

[Aumayr,Karin]

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Dear Arne,

********No commercial interest********

We have more than 20 units of Sola SM in operation since few years. The very early units had some intensity issues but were repaired by Lumencor.  

Most of the units are running throughout the day, without  being switched off and we didn´t noticed any problems until last week where 2 Solas lost some intensity and wavelengths, they are currently on the way to the US for repair. We buy Solas from AHF and are happy with service provided!

I should mention that we also have CoollLed units which work very well over last 10 years.

All the best,
Karin

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative

*****
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*****

Dear all,

in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace mercury burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble with one the instruments last year although we were way below the guaranteed (and massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We repaired the light source at our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again. However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.

Therefore my three questions:
- Do others have similar problems with this product?
- Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for the model we purchased end 2013?
- Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.

Thanks for your feedback in advance.

Best
Arne

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Arne Seitz
Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
CH-1015 Lausanne

Phone: [phone]
Fax:      [phone]
http://biop.epfl.ch/
---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Milan Esner]

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Hello,

We have two LED light sources from Lumencor: SOLA SE and  Spectra X. We have them for several years and never experienced
any problem. Especially Spectra engine is on the system, which is heavily used.
Big disadvantage of SOLA SE is that it is constantly ON. It has combination of several LEDs producing white light.
Spectra has individual LEDs which are switching ON/OFF during acquisition. Therefore lifetime of Spectra is much longer compare to SOLA SE.
Unfortunately I don't know, where you could find any spare parts.

All best,

Milan



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Csúcs Gábor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 11:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Lumencore experience/alternative

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Dear Ben,

I can't comment on the choice of Arne but in our case LEDs have the nice advantage that they don't need a mechanical shutter and (theoretically) their lifetime should be also longer. For most of the higher NA applications, their power is fully sufficient, the only application where we still "need" to use metal-halide lamps are very low mag. Imaging projects (1x-4x).

Greetings Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Benjamin E Smith
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 9:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Lumencore experience/alternative

*****
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*****

Is there a particular reason you went with an LED?  Metal-halide lamps with a quality burner last well over 2000 hours, and have a very high power density.

-Ben Smith

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Csúcs Gábor <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Arne,
>
> Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as
> typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years
> after the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to
> CoolLed. We have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we
> purchased it just after CoolLed started its production) and that setup
> didn't need any maintenance over the years. Of course, statistically
> this is just one case/instrument.
>
> Greetings                       Gabor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear all,
>
> in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace
> mercury burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble
> with one the instruments last year although we were way below the
> guaranteed (and massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We
> repaired the light source at our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again.
> However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to
> repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.
>
> Therefore my three questions:
> - Do others have similar problems with this product?
> - Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for
> the model we purchased end 2013?
> - Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.
>
> Thanks for your feedback in advance.
>
> Best
> Arne
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Arne Seitz
> Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of
> Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
> Phone: [phone]
> Fax:      [phone]
> http://biop.epfl.ch/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

--
Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
University of California, Berkeley
195 Life Sciences Addition
Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
Tel  [phone]
Fax [phone]
e-mail: [hidden email]
http://vision.berkeley.edu/?page_id=5635 <http://vision.berkeley.edu/>

[Gordon Scott-3]

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David ... read these mail quotes ....

It's nice to know that at least the customers appreciate the work Nick,
Gerry and I did.

It's more than a shame that CoolLED went on to feel that they no longer
needed the person who designed all of the electronics and all of the
software of all of their products.

Nobody would pretend that the products were all perfect in every
respect, but the only 'regular', though still rare, problems I remember
were due to either a trapped wire (I did advise against the route for
that wire, for more reasons than just the entrapment risk) and
occasional overcooling because of a mistaken 'requirement' on the cooler
control.

_And_ chose to 'get rid' in quite such a nasty and vindictive way.

Gordon.

On 18/12/17 20:21, Benjamin E Smith wrote:
> Dear Arne,  > > Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as
 > typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years
 > after the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to >
CoolLed. We have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we >
purchased it just after CoolLed started its production) and that > setup
didn't need any maintenance over the years. Of course, > statistically
this is just one case/instrument. > > Greetings Gabor

On 19/12/17 08:37, Aumayr,Karin wrote:
> Dear Arne,  > > ********No commercial interest******** > > We have more than 20
units of Sola SM in operation since few years. > The very early units
had some intensity issues but were repaired by > Lumencor. > > Most of
the units are running throughout the day, without being > switched off
and we didn´t noticed any problems until last week where > 2 Solas lost
some intensity and wavelengths, they are currently on > the way to the
US for repair. We buy Solas from AHF and are happy > with service
provided! > > I should mention that we also have CoollLed units which
work very > well over last 10 years. > > All the best, Karin

--
Gordon Scott
http://www.gscott.co.uk
www.nautavulgaris.org syn www.thepopularsailor.org
https://www.facebook.com/ThePopularSailor

*Rescue Tally Ho*
http://www.yachttallyho.com
https://www.facebook.com/yachtTallyHo

[Steffen Dietzel]

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Ben,

we avoided Mercury lamps (including "Metal-halide" which is
Mercury-halide) for new systems and decided for LEDs for several reasons:

* longer life time advertised, and thus less trouble with changing lamps
and less long-term costs.

* can be switched on and off at will without waiting times. Great for a
core facility.

*  No more hassle with Mercury disposal.

After we had them installed I realized that as 'second lamp' on a
confocal life time is an even stronger argument, since we have Sola
versions which are automatically switched on an off only when needed,
i.e. usually only a few minutes at a time while searching for
interesting areas in the sample. Whereas the mercury lamps are switched
on in the morning and off in the evening.

And then, I don't really see any disadvantages of current LEDs. I am not
saying that none exist, but so far none came up around here. So far
nobody complained about the intensity we get.

Arne, we have four Solas (three as described above and one stand alone)
and two Spectra X, all from 2015. So this is not the first generation of
them. Apart from one false delivery (mix up of UV version and normal
version, I believe) we didn't have any trouble with them.

But not getting service after 4 years definitely is a no go. Thanks for
bringing this up. I'll keep that in mind, should we need a new one.

Steffen


Am 18.12.2017 um 21:21 schrieb Benjamin E Smith:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Is there a particular reason you went with an LED?  Metal-halide lamps with
> a quality burner last well over 2000 hours, and have a very high power
> density.
>
> -Ben Smith
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Csúcs Gábor <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Dear Arne,
>>
>> Such a situation can and must be quite frustrating, especially as
>> typically the companies support their equipment at least for 10 years after
>> the production stop. One potential solution is to switch to CoolLed. We
>> have at us one unit that worked almost for 10 years (we purchased it just
>> after CoolLed started its production) and that setup didn't need any
>> maintenance over the years. Of course, statistically this is just one
>> case/instrument.
>>
>> Greetings                       Gabor
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> On Behalf Of Seitz Arne
>> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:02 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Lumencore experience/alternative
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> in 2013 we were buying Lumencore Sola engines in order to replace mercury
>> burners on our confocal microscopes. We already had trouble with one the
>> instruments last year although we were way below the guaranteed (and
>> massively advertised) lifetime of 20 000 h. We repaired the light source at
>> our costs. One year after the repair we are facing the exact problem again.
>> However this year the Vendor (Visitron) and Lumencore are refusing to
>> repair the unit as they are not supporting the product anymore.
>>
>> Therefore my three questions:
>> - Do others have similar problems with this product?
>> - Can anyone point out where I might be able to find spare parts for the
>> model we purchased end 2013?
>> - Suggestions for alternative products are also highly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback in advance.
>>
>> Best
>> Arne
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dr. Arne Seitz
>> Head of Bioimaging and Optics Platform (BIOP) Swiss Institute of
>> Technology (EPFL) Faculty of Life Sciences Station 15
>> CH-1015 Lausanne
>>
>> Phone: [phone]
>> Fax:      [phone]
>> http://biop.epfl.ch/
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>

--
-- ----------------------------------------------------------

Steffen Dietzel, PD Dr. rer. nat.
Head of the Core Facility Bioimaging at the Biomedical Center
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Walter-Brendel-Zentrum für Experimentelle Medizin

Address:
Biomedical Center
Großhaderner Straße 9
D-82152 Planegg-Martinsried

Phone: [phone]
skype: steffendietzel
e-mail: [hidden email]
fax-to-e-mail: +49/89/2180-9971518
http://www.bioimaging.bmc.med.uni-muenchen.de


--
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Steffen Dietzel, PD Dr. rer. nat
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
Biomedical Center (BMC)
Head of the Core Facility Bioimaging

Großhaderner Straße 9
D-82152 Planegg-Martinsried
Germany

http://www.bioimaging.bmc.med.uni-muenchen.de

[Alan Hughes]

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********commercial post************

Hi All,

Whilst we are on the subject, if any Labs are willing and interested in helping us test a new multi-colour / white LED source for microscopy, please get in touch with me. I don't want to launch into a sales pitch on this forum but I hope it has some interesting features. We would be very grateful for your input and feedback.

Thanks,

Alan

[Claire Brown]

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We have about 10 Sola SM systems. We have had some issues with the light guides with bubbles/shadows early on but they were replaced no problem.

We have had success with the LED120 from Excelitis too and no repairs to date.

We also have CoolLED. I like the price point of the PE300 white and the direct coupling to avoid light guide issues.

So far no problems with electronics but my feeling is electronics and fans and light guides will fail before the light sources themselves.

I agree support should continue past 4 years.

Good luck.

Claire