Re: CMOS inquiry for camera gurus

[Roy_Bainer]

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I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is about the only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks! Our lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in 2016. It is used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence imaging. In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images. I contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they are called) and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to ship it to them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and that it takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.

I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a little hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix condensation. We called Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support engineers, who gave us a little more about the design of the camera and the seal for the sensor. What they told us is that is was back-filled with an inert, dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad and we needed to replace it, plus re calibrate the sensor.

We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to disassemble our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to do it in a clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles and crap from landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is held together with 4 security Torx screws. Removing those, the main body of the camera has the sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together. Also inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!

We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in general, is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some desiccant bags to absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became saturated and so all we needed to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap with the bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left the main camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could also be regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our vacuum was out of operation at the time that we were doing this.)

We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over the sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back up and tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in August and it is now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no condensation. While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick up a few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal. I hope this may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.

[Hongtao Chen]

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Great info, thanks.


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 6:05 PM Roy Bainer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor Zyla
> 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is about the
> only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks! Our
> lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in 2016. It is
> used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence imaging.
> In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images. I
> contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they are called)
> and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to ship it to
> them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and that it
> takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.
>
> I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a little
> hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix condensation. We called
> Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support engineers,
> who gave us a little more about the design of the camera and the seal for
> the sensor. What they told us is that is was back-filled with an inert,
> dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad and we needed to replace it, plus
> re calibrate the sensor.
>
> We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to disassemble
> our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to do it in a
> clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles and crap from
> landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is held together with 4
> security Torx screws. Removing those, the main body of the camera has the
> sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together. Also
> inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!
>
> We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in general,
> is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some desiccant bags to
> absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became saturated and so all we needed
> to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap with the
> bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left the main
> camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could also be
> regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our vacuum was out of
> operation at the time that we were doing this.)
>
> We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over the
> sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back up and
> tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in August and it is
> now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no condensation.
> While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick up a
> few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal. I hope this
> may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.
>

--
Best Regards,
Hongtao Chen

[Sripad Ram-2]

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*****

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I thought Andor had a 5 yr warranty on their vacuum seal? Is that only for
their EMCCD cameras? The presence of dessicant bags was unexpected (but not
totally surprising). In my past job, we did have problems with vacuum seal
with Andor EMCCD cameras, and coincidentally the vacuum seal failed just
after 5 years!

Loss of vacuum seal also occur with other camera brands. In our ORCA flash
camera, we observed condensation after 4 Years of use. Because of lifetime
warranty on the vacuum seal we got a new orca flash camera at no charge.



Sripad

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 4:27 PM Hongtao Chen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Great info, thanks.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 6:05 PM Roy Bainer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor Zyla
> > 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is about
> the
> > only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks!
> Our
> > lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in 2016. It
> is
> > used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence
> imaging.
> > In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images. I
> > contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they are
> called)
> > and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to ship it
> to
> > them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and that
> it
> > takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.
> >
> > I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a little
> > hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix condensation. We
> called
> > Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support engineers,
> > who gave us a little more about the design of the camera and the seal for
> > the sensor. What they told us is that is was back-filled with an inert,
> > dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad and we needed to replace it,
> plus
> > re calibrate the sensor.
> >
> > We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to disassemble
> > our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to do it in a
> > clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles and crap from
> > landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is held together with 4
> > security Torx screws. Removing those, the main body of the camera has the
> > sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together.
> Also
> > inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!
> >
> > We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in general,
> > is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some desiccant bags to
> > absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became saturated and so all we
> needed
> > to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap with
> the
> > bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left the
> main
> > camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could also be
> > regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our vacuum was out
> of
> > operation at the time that we were doing this.)
> >
> > We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over the
> > sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back up and
> > tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in August and it
> is
> > now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no
> condensation.
> > While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick up a
> > few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal. I hope
> this
> > may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.
> >
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Hongtao Chen
>

[Sylvie Le Guyader]

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*****

Interesting info.
We have had some problems with our Andor ixon897 but only after 10 years of heavy usage. Andor diagnostic was that the vacuum seal was compromised and after we sent the camera for service, the problem disappeared.
In our case the symptoms were that the NIS software would show a camera temperature at 999 instead of -70 C and that would lead to software crashes.
It would be interesting to know what you saw in the images that made you think of condensation so we can be aware of such aging signs.

Med vänlig hälsning / Best regards

Sylvie

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Sylvie Le Guyader, PhD
Live Cell Imaging Facility Manager
Karolinska Institutet- Bionut Dpt
Blickagången 16,
Room 7362 (lab)/7840 (office)
14157 Huddinge, Sweden
mobile: [phone]
LCI website
Follow our microscopy blog!

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of S Ram
Sent: 26 January 2020 01:51
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: CMOS inquiry for camera gurus

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Post images on https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=QMbD6xSelHPONPkLOKaF159h%2FAK9ca4XH8hHk7rMTS4%3D&amp;reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
*****

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I thought Andor had a 5 yr warranty on their vacuum seal? Is that only for their EMCCD cameras? The presence of dessicant bags was unexpected (but not totally surprising). In my past job, we did have problems with vacuum seal with Andor EMCCD cameras, and coincidentally the vacuum seal failed just after 5 years!

Loss of vacuum seal also occur with other camera brands. In our ORCA flash camera, we observed condensation after 4 Years of use. Because of lifetime warranty on the vacuum seal we got a new orca flash camera at no charge.



Sripad

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 4:27 PM Hongtao Chen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists
> .umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cs
> ylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1
> cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=wUrJaE
> qh45QMncdsBjXK55vw9PhaR758yQkQt9%2BYjP8%3D&amp;reserved=0
> Post images on https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=QMbD6xSelHPONPkLOKaF159h%2FAK9ca4XH8hHk7rMTS4%3D&amp;reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Great info, thanks.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 6:05 PM Roy Bainer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flis
> > ts.umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&amp;data=02%7C01
> > %7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbf
> > f7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdat
> > a=wUrJaEqh45QMncdsBjXK55vw9PhaR758yQkQt9%2BYjP8%3D&amp;reserved=0
> > Post images on
> > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww
> > .imgur.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e
> > 8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C
> > 637155966957233577&amp;sdata=QMbD6xSelHPONPkLOKaF159h%2FAK9ca4XH8hHk
> > 7rMTS4%3D&amp;reserved=0 and include the link in your
> posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor
> > Zyla
> > 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is
> > about
> the
> > only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks!
> Our
> > lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in
> > 2016. It
> is
> > used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence
> imaging.
> > In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images.
> > I contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they
> > are
> called)
> > and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to
> > ship it
> to
> > them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and
> > that
> it
> > takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.
> >
> > I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a
> > little hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix
> > condensation. We
> called
> > Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support
> > engineers, who gave us a little more about the design of the camera
> > and the seal for the sensor. What they told us is that is was
> > back-filled with an inert, dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad
> > and we needed to replace it,
> plus
> > re calibrate the sensor.
> >
> > We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to
> > disassemble our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to
> > do it in a clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles
> > and crap from landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is
> > held together with 4 security Torx screws. Removing those, the main
> > body of the camera has the sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together.
> Also
> > inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!
> >
> > We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in
> > general, is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some
> > desiccant bags to absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became
> > saturated and so all we
> needed
> > to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap
> > with
> the
> > bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left
> > the
> main
> > camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could
> > also be regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our
> > vacuum was out
> of
> > operation at the time that we were doing this.)
> >
> > We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over
> > the sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back
> > up and tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in
> > August and it
> is
> > now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no
> condensation.
> > While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick
> > up a few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal.
> > I hope
> this
> > may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.
> >
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Hongtao Chen
>

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[Thomas Guilbert]

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*****

Thanks for this interesting info.
 From my customer experience, me and some French microscopy guys had
some condensation issues with Hamamatsu ORCA Flash 4.0 LT+.
Consecutive serial numbers...

Hamamatsu changes all these cameras which had no guaranty, with no fee.

Best,

++

Le 27/01/2020 à 09:36, Sylvie Le Guyader a écrit :

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Interesting info.
> We have had some problems with our Andor ixon897 but only after 10 years of heavy usage. Andor diagnostic was that the vacuum seal was compromised and after we sent the camera for service, the problem disappeared.
> In our case the symptoms were that the NIS software would show a camera temperature at 999 instead of -70 C and that would lead to software crashes.
> It would be interesting to know what you saw in the images that made you think of condensation so we can be aware of such aging signs.
>
> Med vänlig hälsning / Best regards
>
> Sylvie
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> Sylvie Le Guyader, PhD
> Live Cell Imaging Facility Manager
> Karolinska Institutet- Bionut Dpt
> Blickagången 16,
> Room 7362 (lab)/7840 (office)
> 14157 Huddinge, Sweden
> mobile: [phone]
> LCI website
> Follow our microscopy blog!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of S Ram
> Sent: 26 January 2020 01:51
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: CMOS inquiry for camera gurus
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=wUrJaEqh45QMncdsBjXK55vw9PhaR758yQkQt9%2BYjP8%3D&amp;reserved=0
> Post images on https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=QMbD6xSelHPONPkLOKaF159h%2FAK9ca4XH8hHk7rMTS4%3D&amp;reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience.
>
> I thought Andor had a 5 yr warranty on their vacuum seal? Is that only for their EMCCD cameras? The presence of dessicant bags was unexpected (but not totally surprising). In my past job, we did have problems with vacuum seal with Andor EMCCD cameras, and coincidentally the vacuum seal failed just after 5 years!
>
> Loss of vacuum seal also occur with other camera brands. In our ORCA flash camera, we observed condensation after 4 Years of use. Because of lifetime warranty on the vacuum seal we got a new orca flash camera at no charge.
>
>
>
> Sripad
>
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 4:27 PM Hongtao Chen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists
>> .umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cs
>> ylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1
>> cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=wUrJaE
>> qh45QMncdsBjXK55vw9PhaR758yQkQt9%2BYjP8%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> Post images on https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdata=QMbD6xSelHPONPkLOKaF159h%2FAK9ca4XH8hHk7rMTS4%3D&amp;reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Great info, thanks.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 6:05 PM Roy Bainer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> *****
>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flis
>>> ts.umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&amp;data=02%7C01
>>> %7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbf
>>> f7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C637155966957233577&amp;sdat
>>> a=wUrJaEqh45QMncdsBjXK55vw9PhaR758yQkQt9%2BYjP8%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>> Post images on
>>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww
>>> .imgur.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Csylvie.le.guyader%40KI.SE%7Cd79942204e
>>> 8a47befe8408d7a1f9e32e%7Cbff7eef1cf4b4f32be3da1dda043c05d%7C0%7C0%7C
>>> 637155966957233577&amp;sdata=QMbD6xSelHPONPkLOKaF159h%2FAK9ca4XH8hHk
>>> 7rMTS4%3D&amp;reserved=0 and include the link in your
>> posting.
>>> *****
>>>
>>> I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor
>>> Zyla
>>> 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is
>>> about
>> the
>>> only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks!
>> Our
>>> lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in
>>> 2016. It
>> is
>>> used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence
>> imaging.
>>> In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images.
>>> I contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they
>>> are
>> called)
>>> and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to
>>> ship it
>> to
>>> them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and
>>> that
>> it
>>> takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.
>>>
>>> I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a
>>> little hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix
>>> condensation. We
>> called
>>> Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support
>>> engineers, who gave us a little more about the design of the camera
>>> and the seal for the sensor. What they told us is that is was
>>> back-filled with an inert, dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad
>>> and we needed to replace it,
>> plus
>>> re calibrate the sensor.
>>>
>>> We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to
>>> disassemble our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to
>>> do it in a clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles
>>> and crap from landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is
>>> held together with 4 security Torx screws. Removing those, the main
>>> body of the camera has the sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together.
>> Also
>>> inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!
>>>
>>> We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in
>>> general, is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some
>>> desiccant bags to absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became
>>> saturated and so all we
>> needed
>>> to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap
>>> with
>> the
>>> bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left
>>> the
>> main
>>> camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could
>>> also be regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our
>>> vacuum was out
>> of
>>> operation at the time that we were doing this.)
>>>
>>> We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over
>>> the sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back
>>> up and tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in
>>> August and it
>> is
>>> now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no
>> condensation.
>>> While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick
>>> up a few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal.
>>> I hope
>> this
>>> may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Hongtao Chen
>>
>
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>
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[Laurel Ballantyne]

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Hi Sylvie,

I had recently posted a query about suspected condensation, the photos are at https://imgur.com/a/ff7aePj, they started to appear after about 10 minutes of use.

We've been in contact with Andor to send the camera back for refurbishing, but in the meantime I've turned off the camera cooling function and just been using the camera with the fan running.  With the cooling, the chip temperature was -0.4C and these 'bubbles' started to appear.  Once I unselected the cooling function, the temperature rose to and held at around 20C and the 'bubbles' disappeared!

Laurel

[Gerhard Holst]

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Hi Roy,

a very nice work and description, although this is not without high risk of a permanent damage to the image sensor and the system. I am not defending our competitors, but condensation is always an issue in cooled scientific cameras. We also have our share of experiences, even the best possible and available "rubber" type of sealing rings, will over time let some H2O molecules in. If everything is proper, this will take many years or even faster. Usually, that is correct any dry inert gas is used to fill the camera heads to drive out humidity, and for the rest that couldn't by kicked out, most manufacturers use some sort of humidity scavenger. Some of them can be removed from outside and dried out to be used again, or some of them are permanently in there.

The risk I mentioned by opening the camera head is two main topics. Nowadays the microlenses on the image sensors are very often not hard but smooth, such that any dust particle sticks on them and most of the mechanical attempts to remove dust are likely to cause damage. Both options are not favorable, a dust particle can easily generate an not usable cluster of a few pixel.

with best regards,

Gerhard


Dr. Gerhard Holst
Head of Science & Research
Business Development
[phone] <= New

PCO AG, Donaupark 11, 93309 Kelheim, Germany, www.pco.de
Vorstand / Managing Board: Dr. Emil Ott (Chairman), Alexander Grünig, Luitpold Kaspar
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats / Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Johann Plöb
USt. ID-Nr. / VAT: DE128590843, Registergericht / Register Court: Amtsgericht Regensburg HRB 9157
Sitz der Gesellschaft / Registered Office: Kelheim

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Roy Bainer
Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Januar 2020 00:55
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: CMOS inquiry for camera gurus

*****
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I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is about the only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks! Our lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in 2016. It is used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence imaging. In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images. I contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they are called) and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to ship it to them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and that it takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.

I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a little hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix condensation. We called Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support engineers, who gave us a little more about the design of the camera and the seal for the sensor. What they told us is that is was back-filled with an inert, dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad and we needed to replace it, plus re calibrate the sensor.

We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to disassemble our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to do it in a clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles and crap from landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is held together with 4 security Torx screws. Removing those, the main body of the camera has the sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together. Also inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!

We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in general, is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some desiccant bags to absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became saturated and so all we needed to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap with the bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left the main camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could also be regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our vacuum was out of operation at the time that we were doing this.)

We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over the sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back up and tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in August and it is now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no condensation. While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick up a few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal. I hope this may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Since our original post (which I pasted, below) about the Andor
condensation issue that Roy referenced, we have barely used our Andor Zyla.
Roy's email is quite interesting since it seems possible, although a bit
risky, to breathe some new life into our Andor Zyla without spending tons
of money. If we end up trying his procedure, I'll follow up with
information on how things turned out.

I would like to add two extra notes. First, I have received emails from
5-10 researchers (not via the listserv) who indicated the same problem and
the same type of unsatisfying response from Andor. Surely there are even
others who don't read the list. So I have gathered that this is a pretty
common issue for cameras that are aging a bit but probably have their
electronics still functioning very well. Second, we do regularly use the
cheap ZWO cameras that I mentioned but we noticed that they have a
different problem. These cameras, while amazing for the price, don't have
much in the way of a seal, just some desiccant bags near the sensor. It
seems that these desiccant bags eventually create a bit of debris on the
sensor. After 6-9 months, we ended up opening up the camera, cleaning the
sensor, re-drying the desiccant similar to what Roy has described, before
reassembling. Mostly this has worked well for us.


Best regards,
Josh



==== old post from June 15, 2019 ====

Dear camera gurus,

our Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS camera shows condensation on the chip when we cool
it. Andor told us this might be caused by a backfill issue and it costs
~$1,000 to take a look, possible 4-6weeks turnaround and probably more
money to fix the problem.  I have a couple questions and I am also looking
for a little advice.

1. I remember hearing a little bit about cameras holding vacuum, but not
about this backfill problem. Anyway, what is backfill and how does it go
wrong? Is it some kind of an inert, dry gas around the sensor that may now
have some moist air in it? How is it possible to get a backfill problem
without the seal on the vacuum also breaking? Interestingly, I believe I
saw online that the (pre-2016) Andor warranty is 5years on the vacuum and
3years on the backfill.

2. If we have to spend ~$1k to have Andor take a look and then, assuming it
is repairable pay more money (not sure how much, but I'd guess at least
$1-2k), I wonder whether we might be better off just getting something new.
Most recently, we had been using the Zyla on a spinning disc, though it
might have been overkill there. Does anybody have suggestions for an
alternative, such as a good and affordable CMOS camera? We're looking for
something with >1MP, >50Hz, QE>65%, some cooling to help keep the read
noise low, a fire signal for synchronization, and compatibility with
Micromanager.

Related to 2, here is a little info on the sort of thing we are interested
in. We recently purchased a ZWO CMOS camera for ~ $900 and it has been very
nice on our benchtop LED/epi scope (ZWO ASI 174 Cooled). It gives
surprisingly good performance for the price. The specs state 2.4MP, 5.9um
pixels, cooled to 40C below ambient, peak QE of 79%, up to 128FPS, works
fine with Micromanager, but *lacks* a fire signal and we think only has a
buffer of one frame. So it is very close to what we want, but we need
really need a fire signal for synchronization on our spinning disc and we
think a bigger buffer would probably also be important.

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__optcorp.com_products_zwo-2Dasi-2D174-2Dcooled-2Dmonochrome-2Dcmos-2Dtelescope-2Dcamera&d=DwIFaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=vqcUCc6_DzAuw1SsJjKA5sEfX4qYMtTYYsoVV6qji7k&s=7GeqBSBp_ob-byMyXt6kkYRnU2RTRkRMzsp9oYb0T5Y&e=

Thanks!


Best regards,
Josh

On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:00 AM Gerhard Holst <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Roy,
>
> a very nice work and description, although this is not without high risk
> of a permanent damage to the image sensor and the system. I am not
> defending our competitors, but condensation is always an issue in cooled
> scientific cameras. We also have our share of experiences, even the best
> possible and available "rubber" type of sealing rings, will over time let
> some H2O molecules in. If everything is proper, this will take many years
> or even faster. Usually, that is correct any dry inert gas is used to fill
> the camera heads to drive out humidity, and for the rest that couldn't by
> kicked out, most manufacturers use some sort of humidity scavenger. Some of
> them can be removed from outside and dried out to be used again, or some of
> them are permanently in there.
>
> The risk I mentioned by opening the camera head is two main topics.
> Nowadays the microlenses on the image sensors are very often not hard but
> smooth, such that any dust particle sticks on them and most of the
> mechanical attempts to remove dust are likely to cause damage. Both options
> are not favorable, a dust particle can easily generate an not usable
> cluster of a few pixel.
>
> with best regards,
>
> Gerhard
>
>
> Dr. Gerhard Holst
> Head of Science & Research
> Business Development
> [phone] <= New
>
> PCO AG, Donaupark 11, 93309 Kelheim, Germany, www.pco.de
> Vorstand / Managing Board: Dr. Emil Ott (Chairman), Alexander Grünig,
> Luitpold Kaspar
> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats / Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Johann
> Plöb
> USt. ID-Nr. / VAT: DE128590843, Registergericht / Register Court:
> Amtsgericht Regensburg HRB 9157
> Sitz der Gesellschaft / Registered Office: Kelheim
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Im Auftrag von Roy Bainer
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. Januar 2020 00:55
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: CMOS inquiry for camera gurus
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would like to provide my experience with condensation on our Andor Zyla
> 5.5 sCMOS. When we ran into this issue, this mailing list post is about the
> only information we could find outside of talking to Andor. So thanks! Our
> lab at UC Davis has an Andor Zyla 5.5 sCMOS. We purchased it in 2016. It is
> used primarily on an upright microscope for widefield fluorescence imaging.
> In July of 2019 started noticing artifacts and spots in our images. I
> contacted Andor support (or Oxford instruments or whatever they are called)
> and they said that it is condensation and that it requires us to ship it to
> them, and then they will fix it. The minimum fee is $1120 (USD) and that it
> takes 4-6 weeks to repair. We don’t have a warranty on the camera.
>
> I think we paid around $10k for the camera initially, so we were a little
> hesitant to send it off and blow like $2000 to fix condensation. We called
> Andor office and we were able to talk with the product support engineers,
> who gave us a little more about the design of the camera and the seal for
> the sensor. What they told us is that is was back-filled with an inert,
> dry,  gas, and that our seal had gone bad and we needed to replace it, plus
> re calibrate the sensor.
>
> We were not satisfied with that response and so we decided to disassemble
> our camera. I caution anyone thinking of doing this to do it in a
> clean-room or a laminar flow cabinet to prevent particles and crap from
> landing on the sensor.  The cover for the sensor is held together with 4
> security Torx screws. Removing those, the main body of the camera has the
> sensor, and the removed cap has the ring seal that keeps it together. Also
> inside to our surprise were four desiccant bags attached to the cap!
>
> We think what likely happened is that the seal on the camera, in general,
> is not very good, and to compensate, they put in some desiccant bags to
> absorb any moisture. Likely our bags became saturated and so all we needed
> to do was regenerate them. To do this, we put the front camera cap with the
> bags into our oven over the weekend at ~90-100 deg C, and we left the main
> camera body sitting in the laminar flow cabinet. (the bags could also be
> regenerated in a vacuum oven at like 50-70 deg C, but our vacuum was out of
> operation at the time that we were doing this.)
>
> We then re-assembled the system while blowing a little nitrogen over the
> sensor to blow out any particles.  We tightened everything back up and
> tested it out and it worked perfectly! We did this back in August and it is
> now January and the camera is still working perfectly with no condensation.
> While we did do all this work in a laminar flow cabinet, we did pick up a
> few very small particles but for our work, this is no big deal. I hope this
> may be of help to anyone who also runs into an issue with their camera.
>

--
Joshua C. Vaughan
Assistant Professor
Department of Chemistry
Box 351700
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
206-543-4644

[Rumelo Amor]

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*****

Great information from Roy Bainer.

We also had condensation on one of our two Andor Zyla 4.2 sCMOS cameras on an Andor Diskovery spinning disk confocal system (Spectral Applied Research). At that time (October 2018), there were two issues: Andor and Coherent Scientific (Australia; who supply products from Andor, Nikon, Coherent, TMC, etc) took a long time to discuss maintenance agreements for the Diskovery system (Andor will repair the Diskovery but will not do a contract that covers parts), and the condensation on the Zyla. The pictures in this link show how the condensation looked like:
https://imgur.com/a/yF0Jbem
Note that when switching between objectives, the size of the actual structures will change, but not that of the droplets.

Initially, we did what others here have done: we left the camera on as the condensation would disappear after the camera reaches a certain temperature. However, one can only do this for so long as eventually the sensor will fail. We did get the camera repaired eventually, for A$10,613.90 (includes GST), but it took Andor a long time: the Zyla was shipped to Adelaide 9 April 2019, repaired in Belfast and installed on our system 6 November. I can't say whether this is typical turnaround time for Andor Belfast (surely it isn't) but we waited for that camera repair for a very long time.

Many thanks also to Gerhard Holst for his input. On an entirely different matter, Gerhard and Daniel Kirchhöfer / pco Support have been very helpful in the past with their beta recorder for streaming images and working with hardware triggers with the edge 4.2 HQ on our custom-built two-photon scanned light-sheet system.  

Best wishes,

Rumelo

``When the last tree is cut down, the last fish eaten, and the last stream poisoned, you will realize that you cannot eat money.’’
-- 𐓏𐓘𐓻𐓘𐓻𐓟