Re: Confocal lifetime question -summary

[Arvydas Matiukas]

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I would like to thank everybody for the discussion and the ideas/suggestions. Here is my short summary of the factors limiting confocal system lifetime ( specifically useful for generating research data and providing grant support) :
1) Emergence of new microscopy/imaging/processing technologies ~~~ currently <5 years

2) Human interface (Michael term) = combination of computer and related software ~~7-10 years

3)Hardware maintenance - regular PM and timely replacement of  broken or degraded parts (detectors, AOTF, AOM , lasers, scanner,objectives, filters, fibers, other optics and optomechanics)      ~~ 12-20 years.
It may be performed by the  manufacturer or third party, their ability and willingness to continue  may change with product age.
An enthusiast "microscopy handyman" may keep confocal alive for >30 years.

Best regards,
Arvydas

 

>>> "Cammer, Michael" <[hidden email]> 09/23/19 10:38 AM >>>
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I would like to reiterate "computers" because it is the single biggest problem. As individual parts wear out, they may be replaced. We have shutters and filter wheels and lenses dating back to circa 2000 that still work with serial control (even after the wires have gotten sticky), but we have a few cameras (Cooke PCO, Photometrics, Hamamatsu) that are great, but collecting dust because when the computers die, that's it, no slots or drivers for new computers. I've seen high end confocals decommissioned because of computer hardware and operating system obsolescence. Yes, the newer ones are better, but as workhorse instruments, it would be great if we could keep the older ones running. (If I'm not mistaken, the real time controller for the Zeiss 710 and 880 are old technology that Zeiss wisely keeps alive.)

To confirm other replies: the lifetime of high end confocals is defined by the manufacturer's willingness to provide service and by the human interface, a.k.a. computer.

Cheers-

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016
Office: 646-501-0567 Cell: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=7-50GB2WW_6XnbEotWikFVAU76UYPPkO9JfjMw4Jv_8&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=T-dpORJFqwPta_bc5S4nac5Ot8V4VizuFpP3EWEiIKk&e= 




-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Giang, William
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [External] Confocal lifetime question

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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=D0Z9jMWToKqbizM_wvDJignsdxnTqyL1DUeoTxNQZcg&e= and include the link in your posting.
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Hi Arvydas,

Hardware concerns have already been addressed by other people, so I'll bring up the software side of 10 year old confocals in a core facility.

With Windows 7 losing support in January 2020, our IT department is planning on isolating any computers from the {intra, inter}net.

While our FV1000s still function, the following will be disrupted.
1. Stratocore, our usage tracking software for cost recovery, needs internet access.
2. Images acquired on our scopes get robocopy'd to network attached storage for ease of access/discouraging flash drive usage


We also inquired how much it would be to get our Nikon A1R to a Windows 10 system. The giga channel board was ~$6000 by itself.

Side note: I want to clear up the misconception that "M.2 drives are better than SATA drives." "M.2" refers to the form factor. There are M.2 SATA SSDs and M.2 NVMe SSDs.

Best,
Will


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arvydas Matiukas
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [External] Confocal lifetime question


Dear Microscopists,

I am worried that high usage volume over 4000hrs/year that started two years ago and likely will continue can shorten useful lifetime of our confocal (in terms of service years or hours).

I expect properly maintained confocal to last about 10 years or 20,000 hrs. Similarly, a car is expected to last 10 years or 100k miles, however sometimes it drives 100k in 3 years ending at the intermediate condition and value. Please share your experience after how many hours or years of usage Core should start planning the replacement of the heavily used confocal.

Thanks,
Arvydas







+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arvydas Matiukas, Ph.D.
Manager of NRB Shared Equipment
Director of Confocal&Two-Photon Core
SUNY Upstate Medical University

________________________________

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[Martin Wessendorf-2]

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A comment in your summary prompted the following question:
--30 years is almost as long as commercially produced,
computer-controlled confocal microscopes have existed.  Does anyone know
of any instrument that old, that is still being used? E.g. an old MRC
600, or an early Sarastro instrument?

Just curious, but I would stand in awe of the expertise of whoever was
able to keep the thing running!

Martin Wessendorf



On 9/24/2019 11:43 AM, Arvydas Matiukas wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would like to thank everybody for the discussion and the ideas/suggestions. Here is my short summary of the factors limiting confocal system lifetime ( specifically useful for generating research data and providing grant support) :
> 1) Emergence of new microscopy/imaging/processing technologies ~~~ currently <5 years
>
> 2) Human interface (Michael term) = combination of computer and related software ~~7-10 years
>
> 3)Hardware maintenance - regular PM and timely replacement of  broken or degraded parts (detectors, AOTF, AOM , lasers, scanner,objectives, filters, fibers, other optics and optomechanics)      ~~ 12-20 years.
> It may be performed by the  manufacturer or third party, their ability and willingness to continue  may change with product age.
> An enthusiast "microscopy handyman" may keep confocal alive for >30 years.
>
> Best regards,
> Arvydas
>
>  
>
>>>> "Cammer, Michael" <[hidden email]> 09/23/19 10:38 AM >>>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=LiNtXaYV2S6iBrd80DB4eA3U-LaAxfFRcXrK8uaDaho&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=TCZnPbomijVQyTGPDXPKsOaR1SoBxR-NtfVMIHrBTJQ&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would like to reiterate "computers" because it is the single biggest problem. As individual parts wear out, they may be replaced. We have shutters and filter wheels and lenses dating back to circa 2000 that still work with serial control (even after the wires have gotten sticky), but we have a few cameras (Cooke PCO, Photometrics, Hamamatsu) that are great, but collecting dust because when the computers die, that's it, no slots or drivers for new computers. I've seen high end confocals decommissioned because of computer hardware and operating system obsolescence. Yes, the newer ones are better, but as workhorse instruments, it would be great if we could keep the older ones running. (If I'm not mistaken, the real time controller for the Zeiss 710 and 880 are old technology that Zeiss wisely keeps alive.)
>
> To confirm other replies: the lifetime of high end confocals is defined by the manufacturer's willingness to provide service and by the human interface, a.k.a. computer.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016
> Office: 646-501-0567 Cell: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=7-50GB2WW_6XnbEotWikFVAU76UYPPkO9JfjMw4Jv_8&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=T-dpORJFqwPta_bc5S4nac5Ot8V4VizuFpP3EWEiIKk&e=
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Giang, William
> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:26 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [External] Confocal lifetime question
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=voZwYL2basDWApCzYUIxgMyof6LqTugzbHaNnlgZoZA&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=D0Z9jMWToKqbizM_wvDJignsdxnTqyL1DUeoTxNQZcg&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Arvydas,
>
> Hardware concerns have already been addressed by other people, so I'll bring up the software side of 10 year old confocals in a core facility.
>
> With Windows 7 losing support in January 2020, our IT department is planning on isolating any computers from the {intra, inter}net.
>
> While our FV1000s still function, the following will be disrupted.
> 1. Stratocore, our usage tracking software for cost recovery, needs internet access.
> 2. Images acquired on our scopes get robocopy'd to network attached storage for ease of access/discouraging flash drive usage
>
>
> We also inquired how much it would be to get our Nikon A1R to a Windows 10 system. The giga channel board was ~$6000 by itself.
>
> Side note: I want to clear up the misconception that "M.2 drives are better than SATA drives." "M.2" refers to the form factor. There are M.2 SATA SSDs and M.2 NVMe SSDs.
>
> Best,
> Will
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arvydas Matiukas
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [External] Confocal lifetime question
>
>
> Dear Microscopists,
>
> I am worried that high usage volume over 4000hrs/year that started two years ago and likely will continue can shorten useful lifetime of our confocal (in terms of service years or hours).
>
> I expect properly maintained confocal to last about 10 years or 20,000 hrs. Similarly, a car is expected to last 10 years or 100k miles, however sometimes it drives 100k in 3 years ending at the intermediate condition and value. Please share your experience after how many hours or years of usage Core should start planning the replacement of the heavily used confocal.
>
> Thanks,
> Arvydas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Arvydas Matiukas, Ph.D.
> Manager of NRB Shared Equipment
> Director of Confocal&Two-Photon Core
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
>
> ________________________________
>
> This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited.
>
> If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments).

--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]
My preferred pronouns are "he", "him", and "his"

[Armstrong, Brian]

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*****

Hi, we have an LSM310 from 1990, almost 30 years old, that I could fire up and take an image on the CRT monitors. It was serviced by the same Zeiss engineer for about 20 years, so I really cannot take much credit.
*I have the belief that the microscope vendors have a good idea of when it is no longer cost effective for them to service an old Confocal instrument which is about 10 years. From the consumer's point of view, you pay for the service contract when the instrument is fairly new and doesn't need many repairs, and then when the service contract would really become useful later in the instrument's life, it is no longer offered. As stated previously you can keep these instruments running for a long time, but at what cost? Is it worth the cost to keep up an outdated instrument? I think probably not.
I use 10 years as the "useful life of the instrument" when I am asking for funding for a new instrument. The "human interface" will surely be outdated by then.

Best wishes,    

Brian Armstrong PhD
Associate Research Professor
Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
Director, Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Wessendorf
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Confocal lifetime question -summary

[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]





*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

A comment in your summary prompted the following question:
--30 years is almost as long as commercially produced, computer-controlled confocal microscopes have existed.  Does anyone know of any instrument that old, that is still being used? E.g. an old MRC 600, or an early Sarastro instrument?

Just curious, but I would stand in awe of the expertise of whoever was able to keep the thing running!

Martin Wessendorf



On 9/24/2019 11:43 AM, Arvydas Matiukas wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would like to thank everybody for the discussion and the ideas/suggestions. Here is my short summary of the factors limiting confocal system lifetime ( specifically useful for generating research data and providing grant support) :
> 1) Emergence of new microscopy/imaging/processing technologies ~~~ currently <5 years
>
> 2) Human interface (Michael term) = combination of computer and
> related software ~~7-10 years
>
> 3)Hardware maintenance - regular PM and timely replacement of  broken or degraded parts (detectors, AOTF, AOM , lasers, scanner,objectives, filters, fibers, other optics and optomechanics)      ~~ 12-20 years.
> It may be performed by the  manufacturer or third party, their ability and willingness to continue  may change with product age.
> An enthusiast "microscopy handyman" may keep confocal alive for >30 years.
>
> Best regards,
> Arvydas
>
>  
>
>>>> "Cammer, Michael" <[hidden email]> 09/23/19 10:38 AM
>>>> >>>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-
> 2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r
> =DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6D
> c8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=LiNtXaYV2S6iBrd80DB4eA3U-LaAxfFRcXrK8uaDaho&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=TCZnPbomijVQyTGPDXPKsOaR1SoBxR-NtfVMIHrBTJQ&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would like to reiterate "computers" because it is the single biggest
> problem. As individual parts wear out, they may be replaced. We have
> shutters and filter wheels and lenses dating back to circa 2000 that
> still work with serial control (even after the wires have gotten
> sticky), but we have a few cameras (Cooke PCO, Photometrics,
> Hamamatsu) that are great, but collecting dust because when the
> computers die, that's it, no slots or drivers for new computers. I've
> seen high end confocals decommissioned because of computer hardware
> and operating system obsolescence. Yes, the newer ones are better, but
> as workhorse instruments, it would be great if we could keep the older
> ones running. (If I'm not mistaken, the real time controller for the
> Zeiss 710 and 880 are old technology that Zeiss wisely keeps alive.)
>
> To confirm other replies: the lifetime of high end confocals is defined by the manufacturer's willingness to provide service and by the human interface, a.k.a. computer.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU
> Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
> 10016
> Office: 646-501-0567 Cell: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&
> d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1e
> csgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=7-50GB2WW_6X
> nbEotWikFVAU76UYPPkO9JfjMw4Jv_8&e=
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.co
> m_&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dE
> G1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=T-dpORJFq
> wPta_bc5S4nac5Ot8V4VizuFpP3EWEiIKk&e=
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On
> Behalf Of Giang, William
> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:26 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [External] Confocal lifetime question
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-
> 2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeEl
> Zfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00
> o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=voZwYL2basDWApCzYUIxgMyof6
> LqTugzbHaNnlgZoZA&e= Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=D0Z9jMWToKqbizM_wvDJignsdxnTqyL1DUeoTxNQZcg&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Arvydas,
>
> Hardware concerns have already been addressed by other people, so I'll bring up the software side of 10 year old confocals in a core facility.
>
> With Windows 7 losing support in January 2020, our IT department is planning on isolating any computers from the {intra, inter}net.
>
> While our FV1000s still function, the following will be disrupted.
> 1. Stratocore, our usage tracking software for cost recovery, needs internet access.
> 2. Images acquired on our scopes get robocopy'd to network attached
> storage for ease of access/discouraging flash drive usage
>
>
> We also inquired how much it would be to get our Nikon A1R to a Windows 10 system. The giga channel board was ~$6000 by itself.
>
> Side note: I want to clear up the misconception that "M.2 drives are better than SATA drives." "M.2" refers to the form factor. There are M.2 SATA SSDs and M.2 NVMe SSDs.
>
> Best,
> Will
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arvydas
> Matiukas
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [External] Confocal lifetime question
>
>
> Dear Microscopists,
>
> I am worried that high usage volume over 4000hrs/year that started two years ago and likely will continue can shorten useful lifetime of our confocal (in terms of service years or hours).
>
> I expect properly maintained confocal to last about 10 years or 20,000 hrs. Similarly, a car is expected to last 10 years or 100k miles, however sometimes it drives 100k in 3 years ending at the intermediate condition and value. Please share your experience after how many hours or years of usage Core should start planning the replacement of the heavily used confocal.
>
> Thanks,
> Arvydas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Arvydas Matiukas, Ph.D.
> Manager of NRB Shared Equipment
> Director of Confocal&Two-Photon Core
> SUNY Upstate Medical University
>
> ________________________________
>
> This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited.
>
> If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments).

--
Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]
My preferred pronouns are "he", "him", and "his"

------------------------------------------------------------
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[Zdenek Svindrych-2]

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Martin,

In working condition? Maybe. Being used? Hope not!

Back in Virginia I revived a BioRad 2000 (or 2100). It worked surprisingly
well, only the 640 nm laser diode was weak. And I liked the way it was
designed, filterwheels and pinholes actuated using mini servos (like in RC
toys), both X and Y galvo conjugated exactly to the back focal plane, etc.
And it's definitely not that ancient.

A year ago or so I revived a Nikon C1, very compact scan head and software
written in Visual Basic. But the PMTs were too noisy and no AOTF for the
lasers (just few ND filters). Practically unusable.

And my most favorite - the infamous black Nikon PCM 2000 mug! I'll have to
post the picture of it somewhere, could not find it on the internet :-)

Of course none of these date back to the MRC-500 era, that's way too
distant past.

zdenek


On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 4:32 PM Martin Wessendorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> A comment in your summary prompted the following question:
> --30 years is almost as long as commercially produced,
> computer-controlled confocal microscopes have existed.  Does anyone know
> of any instrument that old, that is still being used? E.g. an old MRC
> 600, or an early Sarastro instrument?
>
> Just curious, but I would stand in awe of the expertise of whoever was
> able to keep the thing running!
>
> Martin Wessendorf
>
>
>
> On 9/24/2019 11:43 AM, Arvydas Matiukas wrote:
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I would like to thank everybody for the discussion and the
> ideas/suggestions. Here is my short summary of the factors limiting
> confocal system lifetime ( specifically useful for generating research data
> and providing grant support) :
> > 1) Emergence of new microscopy/imaging/processing technologies ~~~
>       currently <5 years
> >
> > 2) Human interface (Michael term) = combination of computer and related
> software ~~7-10 years
> >
> > 3)Hardware maintenance - regular PM and timely replacement of  broken or
> degraded parts (detectors, AOTF, AOM , lasers, scanner,objectives, filters,
> fibers, other optics and optomechanics)
>           ~~ 12-20 years.
> > It may be performed by the  manufacturer or third party, their ability
> and willingness to continue  may change with product age.
> > An enthusiast "microscopy handyman" may keep confocal alive for >30
> years.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Arvydas
> >
> >
> >
> >>>> "Cammer, Michael" <[hidden email]> 09/23/19 10:38 AM
> >>>
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=LiNtXaYV2S6iBrd80DB4eA3U-LaAxfFRcXrK8uaDaho&e=
> > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=TCZnPbomijVQyTGPDXPKsOaR1SoBxR-NtfVMIHrBTJQ&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I would like to reiterate "computers" because it is the single biggest
> problem. As individual parts wear out, they may be replaced. We have
> shutters and filter wheels and lenses dating back to circa 2000 that still
> work with serial control (even after the wires have gotten sticky), but we
> have a few cameras (Cooke PCO, Photometrics, Hamamatsu) that are great, but
> collecting dust because when the computers die, that's it, no slots or
> drivers for new computers. I've seen high end confocals decommissioned
> because of computer hardware and operating system obsolescence. Yes, the
> newer ones are better, but as workhorse instruments, it would be great if
> we could keep the older ones running. (If I'm not mistaken, the real time
> controller for the Zeiss 710 and 880 are old technology that Zeiss wisely
> keeps alive.)
> >
> > To confirm other replies: the lifetime of high end confocals is defined
> by the manufacturer's willingness to provide service and by the human
> interface, a.k.a. computer.
> >
> > Cheers-
> >
> > Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
> > NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
> 10016
> > Office: 646-501-0567 Cell: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=7-50GB2WW_6XnbEotWikFVAU76UYPPkO9JfjMw4Jv_8&e=
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=T-dpORJFqwPta_bc5S4nac5Ot8V4VizuFpP3EWEiIKk&e=
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On
> Behalf Of Giang, William
> > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:26 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [External] Confocal lifetime question
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=voZwYL2basDWApCzYUIxgMyof6LqTugzbHaNnlgZoZA&e=
> > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=D0Z9jMWToKqbizM_wvDJignsdxnTqyL1DUeoTxNQZcg&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > Hi Arvydas,
> >
> > Hardware concerns have already been addressed by other people, so I'll
> bring up the software side of 10 year old confocals in a core facility.
> >
> > With Windows 7 losing support in January 2020, our IT department is
> planning on isolating any computers from the {intra, inter}net.
> >
> > While our FV1000s still function, the following will be disrupted.
> > 1. Stratocore, our usage tracking software for cost recovery, needs
> internet access.
> > 2. Images acquired on our scopes get robocopy'd to network attached
> storage for ease of access/discouraging flash drive usage
> >
> >
> > We also inquired how much it would be to get our Nikon A1R to a Windows
> 10 system. The giga channel board was ~$6000 by itself.
> >
> > Side note: I want to clear up the misconception that "M.2 drives are
> better than SATA drives." "M.2" refers to the form factor. There are M.2
> SATA SSDs and M.2 NVMe SSDs.
> >
> > Best,
> > Will
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Arvydas Matiukas
> > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:32 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [External] Confocal lifetime question
> >
> >
> > Dear Microscopists,
> >
> > I am worried that high usage volume over 4000hrs/year that started two
> years ago and likely will continue can shorten useful lifetime of our
> confocal (in terms of service years or hours).
> >
> > I expect properly maintained confocal to last about 10 years or 20,000
> hrs. Similarly, a car is expected to last 10 years or 100k miles, however
> sometimes it drives 100k in 3 years ending at the intermediate condition
> and value. Please share your experience after how many hours or years of
> usage Core should start planning the replacement of the heavily used
> confocal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Arvydas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Arvydas Matiukas, Ph.D.
> > Manager of NRB Shared Equipment
> > Director of Confocal&Two-Photon Core
> > SUNY Upstate Medical University
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of
> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
> you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
> this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited.
> >
> > If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by
> reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message
> (including attachments).
>
> --
> Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
> Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
> University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
> 6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
> Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]
> My preferred pronouns are "he", "him", and "his"
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

[Todd Adams Clason]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

We have an old Noran circa 1995 running here at UVM, and it's still humming along nicely. We did the initial upgrade from SGI to Windows back when that was offered by Prairie Technology. Since then, we've moved it up to Windows 10, with a lot of bad words in between.

Take care all!

Todd

[Bahmer, Andreas]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

Dear Todd,

can I write you a personal message because I got an old Noran and I would like to set it to run again?


my email ist [hidden email]


best

Andreas

________________________________
Von: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von Todd Clason <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 19:03:50
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: Confocal lifetime question -summary

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

We have an old Noran circa 1995 running here at UVM, and it's still humming along nicely. We did the initial upgrade from SGI to Windows back when that was offered by Prairie Technology. Since then, we've moved it up to Windows 10, with a lot of bad words in between.

Take care all!

Todd

[Renaud Ginet]

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/// Commercial response ///

Dear Arvydas and Microscopy community,

From our experience, there is not really an absolute rule concerning the lifetime of the components of a fluorescence microscope. For instance, light sources such as lasers can undergo a monotoneous or an abrupt decrease of the output power; filters can rapidely darken or undergo a low decrease of their transmittance; detectors can undergo a monotoneous or an abrupt decrease of the sensitivity, etc.
Being sure of one’s microscope performance is indeed a valid point, where intensive use, lifetime and end of maintenance contract are key factors.
 
To provide info on how one’s microscope is drifting over time, you can use Argolight products (www.argolight.com), composed of durable QC slides associated to a software that we have developed to track 10 main metrological parameters of a fluorescence microscope, such as illumination power, field uniformity, lateral resolution, etc. You can see on a timeline how the results evolve over time and hence be able to detect any dramatic change (after a part replacement for example) or trends (slow decrease of illumination power for example).
It’s a bit like the car diagnostic tool to continue on the metaphor.
It’s also easier and quicker to discuss the matter with the technician/maintenance contractor.
 
What people tend to do is to include a request for a QC tool in their tenders/funding projects, so as to incite manufacturers to provide one of these products with the new systems and get everything out of the same budget line.
 
Best regards,
Renaud


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> De la part de Zdenek Svindrych
Envoyé : mercredi 25 septembre 2019 01:56
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: Confocal lifetime question -summary

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Martin,

In working condition? Maybe. Being used? Hope not!

Back in Virginia I revived a BioRad 2000 (or 2100). It worked surprisingly well, only the 640 nm laser diode was weak. And I liked the way it was designed, filterwheels and pinholes actuated using mini servos (like in RC toys), both X and Y galvo conjugated exactly to the back focal plane, etc.
And it's definitely not that ancient.

A year ago or so I revived a Nikon C1, very compact scan head and software written in Visual Basic. But the PMTs were too noisy and no AOTF for the lasers (just few ND filters). Practically unusable.

And my most favorite - the infamous black Nikon PCM 2000 mug! I'll have to post the picture of it somewhere, could not find it on the internet :-)

Of course none of these date back to the MRC-500 era, that's way too distant past.

zdenek


On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 4:32 PM Martin Wessendorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> A comment in your summary prompted the following question:
> --30 years is almost as long as commercially produced,
> computer-controlled confocal microscopes have existed.  Does anyone
> know of any instrument that old, that is still being used? E.g. an old
> MRC 600, or an early Sarastro instrument?
>
> Just curious, but I would stand in awe of the expertise of whoever was
> able to keep the thing running!
>
> Martin Wessendorf
>
>
>
> On 9/24/2019 11:43 AM, Arvydas Matiukas wrote:
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I would like to thank everybody for the discussion and the
> ideas/suggestions. Here is my short summary of the factors limiting
> confocal system lifetime ( specifically useful for generating research
> data and providing grant support) :
> > 1) Emergence of new microscopy/imaging/processing technologies ~~~
>       currently <5 years
> >
> > 2) Human interface (Michael term) = combination of computer and
> > related
> software ~~7-10 years
> >
> > 3)Hardware maintenance - regular PM and timely replacement of  
> > broken or
> degraded parts (detectors, AOTF, AOM , lasers, scanner,objectives,
> filters, fibers, other optics and optomechanics)
>           ~~ 12-20 years.
> > It may be performed by the  manufacturer or third party, their
> > ability
> and willingness to continue  may change with product age.
> > An enthusiast "microscopy handyman" may keep confocal alive for >30
> years.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Arvydas
> >
> >
> >
> >>>> "Cammer, Michael" <[hidden email]> 09/23/19 10:38
> >>>> AM
> >>>
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-
> 2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r
> =DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6D
> c8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=LiNtXaYV2S6iBrd80DB4eA3U-LaAxfFRcXrK8uaDaho&e=
> > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=Dw
> IFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1ecsgK
> 6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=TCZnPbomijVQyTGP
> DXPKsOaR1SoBxR-NtfVMIHrBTJQ&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I would like to reiterate "computers" because it is the single
> > biggest
> problem. As individual parts wear out, they may be replaced. We have
> shutters and filter wheels and lenses dating back to circa 2000 that
> still work with serial control (even after the wires have gotten
> sticky), but we have a few cameras (Cooke PCO, Photometrics,
> Hamamatsu) that are great, but collecting dust because when the
> computers die, that's it, no slots or drivers for new computers. I've
> seen high end confocals decommissioned because of computer hardware
> and operating system obsolescence. Yes, the newer ones are better, but
> as workhorse instruments, it would be great if we could keep the older
> ones running. (If I'm not mistaken, the real time controller for the
> Zeiss 710 and 880 are old technology that Zeiss wisely keeps alive.)
> >
> > To confirm other replies: the lifetime of high end confocals is
> > defined
> by the manufacturer's willingness to provide service and by the human
> interface, a.k.a. computer.
> >
> > Cheers-
> >
> > Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
> > NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New
> > York, NY
> 10016
> > Office: 646-501-0567 Cell: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&
> d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dEG1e
> csgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=7-50GB2WW_6X
> nbEotWikFVAU76UYPPkO9JfjMw4Jv_8&e=
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.co
> m_&d=DwIFAg&c=ogn2iPkgF7TkVSicOVBfKg&r=DtXPX1Vw9uh8rqlCEC9BTBr2oYBP4dE
> G1ecsgK6l-4k&m=PaT-MNH8yDQrPCRyQ77Ak6Dc8Kz8qTSPeKdglsjFj44&s=T-dpORJFq
> wPta_bc5S4nac5Ot8V4VizuFpP3EWEiIKk&e=
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On
> Behalf Of Giang, William
> > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:26 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [External] Confocal lifetime question
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-
> 2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeEl
> Zfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L01qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00
> o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAbfA&s=voZwYL2basDWApCzYUIxgMyof6
> LqTugzbHaNnlgZoZA&e=
> > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=Dw
> IFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=hUBj2D5n6oKThx2L0
> 1qn8IORZb5f-ruLVXPmQ1zQNnM&m=00o-JMCizCBAjpuV-8IRez_nqLY91421Kw-lYocAb
> fA&s=D0Z9jMWToKqbizM_wvDJignsdxnTqyL1DUeoTxNQZcg&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > Hi Arvydas,
> >
> > Hardware concerns have already been addressed by other people, so
> > I'll
> bring up the software side of 10 year old confocals in a core facility.
> >
> > With Windows 7 losing support in January 2020, our IT department is
> planning on isolating any computers from the {intra, inter}net.
> >
> > While our FV1000s still function, the following will be disrupted.
> > 1. Stratocore, our usage tracking software for cost recovery, needs
> internet access.
> > 2. Images acquired on our scopes get robocopy'd to network attached
> storage for ease of access/discouraging flash drive usage
> >
> >
> > We also inquired how much it would be to get our Nikon A1R to a
> > Windows
> 10 system. The giga channel board was ~$6000 by itself.
> >
> > Side note: I want to clear up the misconception that "M.2 drives are
> better than SATA drives." "M.2" refers to the form factor. There are
> M.2 SATA SSDs and M.2 NVMe SSDs.
> >
> > Best,
> > Will
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Confocal Microscopy List
> > [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Arvydas Matiukas
> > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:32 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [External] Confocal lifetime question
> >
> >
> > Dear Microscopists,
> >
> > I am worried that high usage volume over 4000hrs/year that started
> > two
> years ago and likely will continue can shorten useful lifetime of our
> confocal (in terms of service years or hours).
> >
> > I expect properly maintained confocal to last about 10 years or
> > 20,000
> hrs. Similarly, a car is expected to last 10 years or 100k miles,
> however sometimes it drives 100k in 3 years ending at the intermediate
> condition and value. Please share your experience after how many hours
> or years of usage Core should start planning the replacement of the
> heavily used confocal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Arvydas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Arvydas Matiukas, Ph.D.
> > Manager of NRB Shared Equipment
> > Director of Confocal&Two-Photon Core SUNY Upstate Medical University
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use
> > of
> the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited.
> >
> > If you have received this message in error, please contact the
> > sender by
> reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message
> (including attachments).
>
> --
> Martin Wessendorf, Ph.D.                   office: [phone]
> Assoc Prof, Dept Neuroscience                 lab: [phone]
> University of Minnesota             Preferred FAX: [phone]
> 6-145 Jackson Hall, 321 Church St. SE    Dept Fax: [phone]
> Minneapolis, MN  55455                    e-mail: [hidden email]
> My preferred pronouns are "he", "him", and "his"
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth