Re: Reliability & longevity of Leica confocals

[Chiaruttini Nicolas]

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Dear Esteban,

We have had Leica SP8 confocal microscopes for several years. We do not have the same experience as previous emails, unfortunately, and thought it wise to share. This relates our experience with Leica, and Leica support in Switzerland

We have 2 high-end SP8 systems with white light lasers - one equipped for FLIM, one for STED 3X.

Both white light lasers broke after three years - leading to a downtime of a few months because the manufacturer (NKT Photonics) (not Leica’s direct responsibility though) was slow to repair and/or produce new lasers.

For one SP8, we discovered we needed to realign all the lasers almost every two months because we had significant XY drift (up to  500 nm!) between wavelengths. Several Leica technicians came to try and fix the issue more permanently, but so far the only solution remains to realign the lasers every three months.

In January 2020 we acquired 3 recent Leica SP8 confocals to be our workhorse-microscopes. These are more standard, with 4 fixed wavelength lasers. And... It's been six months of hectic back and forth discussions and interventions to make them work as promised. For the main issues:
1 - We had many random software issues (lasers not starting; camera initialization failures). Facing these issues, the technicians were powerless, and, seeing as we could only communicate with Leica through them, we had no feedback on how the issues were being addressed. Ultimately after 3 months they decided to replace all cameras, leaving the laser issue still open.
2 - We also had some hardware issues:
 a\ there was no end-of-travel stop to limit the condenser from overshooting the motorized stage, potentially “decapitating” them during initialization - we had to build these end-of-travel stops ourselves.
 b\ switching objectives or moving the stage was scratching the objectives on the turret against the sample holder - all scratched objectives had to be replaced.
3 - After 5 months (including the lockdown), a mechanical piece meant to align the system during initialization broke and could not be removed from the lightpath - it’s been two weeks and we’re still waiting for this piece or an intervention
4 - It’s too long to list, but there are/were many other (small or rare) issues, lasers switching off randomly during a tiling, a HyD detector locking itself randomly despite there not being any saturation, a detector emission window shifted by >20 nm without explanation

Overall, many on-site interventions were required on our SP8s systems - downtimes of a few weeks were not rare.

Theoretically, Leica has a very sound system and perhaps we asked too much (brightfield, widefield epifluorescence, confocal, tiling on the same system for our new SP8s). We sincerely hope that these machines can become our go-to confocals in the facility, but for now, we just want them to work as advertised.
Maybe they fixed all this in the Stellaris systems, which could explain the rebranding that took place there?

As mentioned in previous answers by others, the SP5s we had previously in the facility were really reliable, but we figured we should temper these impressions with our experience with the most recent SP8s.

In practice, we have lost some confidence in Leica systems. For us, compared to other systems, it takes much longer to ensure that the systems work as they should.

Best,

Nicolas


---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Nicolas Chiaruttini

Bioimaging and Optics Platform (PT-BIOP)

Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL)
Faculty of Life Sciences
CH-1015 Lausanne

http://biop.epfl.ch/


---------------------------------------------------------------

[Zdenek Svindrych-2]

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Hi Nicolas,
quite unusual experience!
Over the years I've worked with SP2s and SP5s (not so much SP8s yet), the
main issues AFAIK:
SP2 - AOBS driver issues, Mira replaced with Chameleon (thankfully)
SP5 - AOBS driver RF amp died, fast axis galvo bearing failed, mechanical
laser shutter failed, WLL (some very early version) dying quite fast as it
always ran at full power, intermittent HyD issues, 405 nm laser coupling
issues.
Reliable machines overall, just like the other well known brands (I mean
Zeiss, I don't have a long history with Olympus or Nikon confocals).
Btw, I don't think they reworked Stellaris that much, which is good. New
tech = new bugs...
Best, zdenek

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:06 AM Chiaruttini Nicolas <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Esteban,
>
> We have had Leica SP8 confocal microscopes for several years. We do not
> have the same experience as previous emails, unfortunately, and thought it
> wise to share. This relates our experience with Leica, and Leica support in
> Switzerland
>
> We have 2 high-end SP8 systems with white light lasers - one equipped for
> FLIM, one for STED 3X.
>
> Both white light lasers broke after three years - leading to a downtime of
> a few months because the manufacturer (NKT Photonics) (not Leica’s direct
> responsibility though) was slow to repair and/or produce new lasers.
>
> For one SP8, we discovered we needed to realign all the lasers almost
> every two months because we had significant XY drift (up to  500 nm!)
> between wavelengths. Several Leica technicians came to try and fix the
> issue more permanently, but so far the only solution remains to realign the
> lasers every three months.
>
> In January 2020 we acquired 3 recent Leica SP8 confocals to be our
> workhorse-microscopes. These are more standard, with 4 fixed wavelength
> lasers. And... It's been six months of hectic back and forth discussions
> and interventions to make them work as promised. For the main issues:
> 1 - We had many random software issues (lasers not starting; camera
> initialization failures). Facing these issues, the technicians were
> powerless, and, seeing as we could only communicate with Leica through
> them, we had no feedback on how the issues were being addressed. Ultimately
> after 3 months they decided to replace all cameras, leaving the laser issue
> still open.
> 2 - We also had some hardware issues:
>  a\ there was no end-of-travel stop to limit the condenser from
> overshooting the motorized stage, potentially “decapitating” them during
> initialization - we had to build these end-of-travel stops ourselves.
>  b\ switching objectives or moving the stage was scratching the objectives
> on the turret against the sample holder - all scratched objectives had to
> be replaced.
> 3 - After 5 months (including the lockdown), a mechanical piece meant to
> align the system during initialization broke and could not be removed from
> the lightpath - it’s been two weeks and we’re still waiting for this piece
> or an intervention
> 4 - It’s too long to list, but there are/were many other (small or rare)
> issues, lasers switching off randomly during a tiling, a HyD detector
> locking itself randomly despite there not being any saturation, a detector
> emission window shifted by >20 nm without explanation
>
> Overall, many on-site interventions were required on our SP8s systems -
> downtimes of a few weeks were not rare.
>
> Theoretically, Leica has a very sound system and perhaps we asked too much
> (brightfield, widefield epifluorescence, confocal, tiling on the same
> system for our new SP8s). We sincerely hope that these machines can become
> our go-to confocals in the facility, but for now, we just want them to work
> as advertised.
> Maybe they fixed all this in the Stellaris systems, which could explain
> the rebranding that took place there?
>
> As mentioned in previous answers by others, the SP5s we had previously in
> the facility were really reliable, but we figured we should temper these
> impressions with our experience with the most recent SP8s.
>
> In practice, we have lost some confidence in Leica systems. For us,
> compared to other systems, it takes much longer to ensure that the systems
> work as they should.
>
> Best,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr. Nicolas Chiaruttini
>
> Bioimaging and Optics Platform (PT-BIOP)
>
> Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL)
> Faculty of Life Sciences
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
> http://biop.epfl.ch/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Scientist - Microscopy Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

[Csúcs Gábor-3]

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*****

Dear Nicolas,

We have exactly the same experience as you (just slightly different problems). Our SP2s though were certainly more robust. I somehow have the feeling that Leica pushes the innovation and via their modular design you can create a system of arbitrary complexity, but they simply can not manage to operate those complex systems stably. Just my thoughts....

Greetings Gabor

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Zdenek Svindrych
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 7:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Reliability & longevity of Leica confocals

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

Hi Nicolas,
quite unusual experience!
Over the years I've worked with SP2s and SP5s (not so much SP8s yet), the main issues AFAIK:
SP2 - AOBS driver issues, Mira replaced with Chameleon (thankfully)
SP5 - AOBS driver RF amp died, fast axis galvo bearing failed, mechanical laser shutter failed, WLL (some very early version) dying quite fast as it always ran at full power, intermittent HyD issues, 405 nm laser coupling issues.
Reliable machines overall, just like the other well known brands (I mean Zeiss, I don't have a long history with Olympus or Nikon confocals).
Btw, I don't think they reworked Stellaris that much, which is good. New tech = new bugs...
Best, zdenek

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:06 AM Chiaruttini Nicolas < [hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Esteban,
>
> We have had Leica SP8 confocal microscopes for several years. We do
> not have the same experience as previous emails, unfortunately, and
> thought it wise to share. This relates our experience with Leica, and
> Leica support in Switzerland
>
> We have 2 high-end SP8 systems with white light lasers - one equipped
> for FLIM, one for STED 3X.
>
> Both white light lasers broke after three years - leading to a
> downtime of a few months because the manufacturer (NKT Photonics) (not
> Leica’s direct responsibility though) was slow to repair and/or produce new lasers.
>
> For one SP8, we discovered we needed to realign all the lasers almost
> every two months because we had significant XY drift (up to  500 nm!)
> between wavelengths. Several Leica technicians came to try and fix the
> issue more permanently, but so far the only solution remains to
> realign the lasers every three months.
>
> In January 2020 we acquired 3 recent Leica SP8 confocals to be our
> workhorse-microscopes. These are more standard, with 4 fixed
> wavelength lasers. And... It's been six months of hectic back and
> forth discussions and interventions to make them work as promised. For the main issues:
> 1 - We had many random software issues (lasers not starting; camera
> initialization failures). Facing these issues, the technicians were
> powerless, and, seeing as we could only communicate with Leica through
> them, we had no feedback on how the issues were being addressed.
> Ultimately after 3 months they decided to replace all cameras, leaving
> the laser issue still open.
> 2 - We also had some hardware issues:
>  a\ there was no end-of-travel stop to limit the condenser from
> overshooting the motorized stage, potentially “decapitating” them
> during initialization - we had to build these end-of-travel stops ourselves.
>  b\ switching objectives or moving the stage was scratching the
> objectives on the turret against the sample holder - all scratched
> objectives had to be replaced.
> 3 - After 5 months (including the lockdown), a mechanical piece meant
> to align the system during initialization broke and could not be
> removed from the lightpath - it’s been two weeks and we’re still
> waiting for this piece or an intervention
> 4 - It’s too long to list, but there are/were many other (small or
> rare) issues, lasers switching off randomly during a tiling, a HyD
> detector locking itself randomly despite there not being any
> saturation, a detector emission window shifted by >20 nm without
> explanation
>
> Overall, many on-site interventions were required on our SP8s systems
> - downtimes of a few weeks were not rare.
>
> Theoretically, Leica has a very sound system and perhaps we asked too
> much (brightfield, widefield epifluorescence, confocal, tiling on the
> same system for our new SP8s). We sincerely hope that these machines
> can become our go-to confocals in the facility, but for now, we just
> want them to work as advertised.
> Maybe they fixed all this in the Stellaris systems, which could
> explain the rebranding that took place there?
>
> As mentioned in previous answers by others, the SP5s we had previously
> in the facility were really reliable, but we figured we should temper
> these impressions with our experience with the most recent SP8s.
>
> In practice, we have lost some confidence in Leica systems. For us,
> compared to other systems, it takes much longer to ensure that the
> systems work as they should.
>
> Best,
>
> Nicolas
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr. Nicolas Chiaruttini
>
> Bioimaging and Optics Platform (PT-BIOP)
>
> Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) Faculty of Life
> Sciences
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
> http://biop.epfl.ch/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Scientist - Microscopy Imaging Specialist Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

[G. Esteban Fernandez]

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*****

Thank you so much for the input Nicolas. Such a string of problems with
SP8’s is disconcerting. Feedback on service in the L.A. area has been good,
but best to not need it so much in the first place! Maybe the STELLARIS 5
will be more robust, akin to your SP5s, as it’s apparently less complex
than STELLARIS 8 (narrower range WLL, no STED, no FALCON).

-Esteban


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 8:06 AM Chiaruttini Nicolas <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Dear Esteban,
>
>
>
> We have had Leica SP8 confocal microscopes for several years. We do not
> have the same experience as previous emails, unfortunately, and thought it
> wise to share. This relates our experience with Leica, and Leica support in
> Switzerland
>
>
>
> We have 2 high-end SP8 systems with white light lasers - one equipped for
> FLIM, one for STED 3X.
>
>
>
> Both white light lasers broke after three years - leading to a downtime of
> a few months because the manufacturer (NKT Photonics) (not Leica’s direct
> responsibility though) was slow to repair and/or produce new lasers.
>
>
>
> For one SP8, we discovered we needed to realign all the lasers almost
> every two months because we had significant XY drift (up to  500 nm!)
> between wavelengths. Several Leica technicians came to try and fix the
> issue more permanently, but so far the only solution remains to realign the
> lasers every three months.
>
>
>
> In January 2020 we acquired 3 recent Leica SP8 confocals to be our
> workhorse-microscopes. These are more standard, with 4 fixed wavelength
> lasers. And... It's been six months of hectic back and forth discussions
> and interventions to make them work as promised. For the main issues:
>
> 1 - We had many random software issues (lasers not starting; camera
> initialization failures). Facing these issues, the technicians were
> powerless, and, seeing as we could only communicate with Leica through
> them, we had no feedback on how the issues were being addressed. Ultimately
> after 3 months they decided to replace all cameras, leaving the laser issue
> still open.
>
> 2 - We also had some hardware issues:
>
>  a\ there was no end-of-travel stop to limit the condenser from
> overshooting the motorized stage, potentially “decapitating” them during
> initialization - we had to build these end-of-travel stops ourselves.
>
>  b\ switching objectives or moving the stage was scratching the objectives
> on the turret against the sample holder - all scratched objectives had to
> be replaced.
>
> 3 - After 5 months (including the lockdown), a mechanical piece meant to
> align the system during initialization broke and could not be removed from
> the lightpath - it’s been two weeks and we’re still waiting for this piece
> or an intervention
>
> 4 - It’s too long to list, but there are/were many other (small or rare)
> issues, lasers switching off randomly during a tiling, a HyD detector
> locking itself randomly despite there not being any saturation, a detector
> emission window shifted by >20 nm without explanation
>
>
>
> Overall, many on-site interventions were required on our SP8s systems -
> downtimes of a few weeks were not rare.
>
>
>
> Theoretically, Leica has a very sound system and perhaps we asked too much
> (brightfield, widefield epifluorescence, confocal, tiling on the same
> system for our new SP8s). We sincerely hope that these machines can become
> our go-to confocals in the facility, but for now, we just want them to work
> as advertised.
>
> Maybe they fixed all this in the Stellaris systems, which could explain
> the rebranding that took place there?
>
>
>
> As mentioned in previous answers by others, the SP5s we had previously in
> the facility were really reliable, but we figured we should temper these
> impressions with our experience with the most recent SP8s.
>
>
>
> In practice, we have lost some confidence in Leica systems. For us,
> compared to other systems, it takes much longer to ensure that the systems
> work as they should.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Nicolas
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Dr. Nicolas Chiaruttini
>
>
>
> Bioimaging and Optics Platform (PT-BIOP)
>
>
>
> Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL)
>
> Faculty of Life Sciences
>
> CH-1015 Lausanne
>
>
>
> http://biop.epfl.ch/
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>