laser lifetimes
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Listers,
We're in the midst of grant-writing and budgets, and I'd like to get some folks' experiences with laser lifetimes and maintenance issues. Specifically, multi-line argon lasers and 405 and 559 diode lasers. These diodes in particular add a fair amount to a service contract. How necessary is it to include the lasers in a service contract? Currently, our old instrument has a single-line 488 argon and a HeNe 543, no contract and no problems, so I'm tending to excluding some or all of the lasers from the contract. But ... Thanks for the information. Phil -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576 |
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Hi Phil,
Our Zeiss confocal has been in daily use since it was purchased 5 years ago with the system typically turned on in the morning and off again late in the evening. During that 5 year period we have had the 405 nm diode laser (unsure of manufacturer) replaced twice and the argon laser (Lasos) replaced twice. The 561 nm diode (Melles Griot) and 633 nm HeNe (Lasos) lasers are still the originals, though compared with the others the 633 HeNe gets little use. We have the complete system including lasers on service contract as it's important for us to minimise downtime. The service contract isn't cheap, but for us I think it has given value for money. Cheers, Simon -----Original Message----- From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Philip Oshel Sent: 20 January 2009 16:17 To: [hidden email] Subject: laser lifetimes Listers, We're in the midst of grant-writing and budgets, and I'd like to get some folks' experiences with laser lifetimes and maintenance issues. Specifically, multi-line argon lasers and 405 and 559 diode lasers. These diodes in particular add a fair amount to a service contract. How necessary is it to include the lasers in a service contract? Currently, our old instrument has a single-line 488 argon and a HeNe 543, no contract and no problems, so I'm tending to excluding some or all of the lasers from the contract. But ... Thanks for the information. Phil -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576 |
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In reply to this post by Oshel, Philip Eugene
If the service contract for the confocal unit itself covers alignment (depending on your comfort level, you might not even need that), then often it's cheaper to just outright purchase a new laser than cover one for several years and never need to have anything done with it. In our facility, the diode laser have worked just fine for 5 years, of course some of them are not used daily. I also suspect service contracts will go up, and the cost of lasers will go down over the course of 5 years. While I have not offered you anything solid, I suggest you look at your comfort level, funding and get price quotes for replacement lasers and read the fine print on the service contract. We removed all the diodes from our contracts. Christian |
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I agree with Simon and Christian; if you think you can handle the alignment yourself just buying new lasers and self-installing can be cheaper. One thing though; if you don't have someone with a decent optics skill set aligning the lasers can sometimes be tricky. Also, when you buy your replacement laser be careful who you buy it from. Very frequently a cheap laser is just that; a cheap laser. There are issues of mode quality (basically shape of the beam out of the laser etc.) that need to be addressed to get good performance in a confocal system. Again, if you don't have somebody with a basic optics background to go through all this then you could have trouble.
Craig On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Christian <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Oshel, Philip Eugene
Dear Phil,
in addition to the long lifetime of the 405, it can be switched off any time it is not used, while gas lasers always need to run quite some time in advance before they can be used, so you gain some extra avoiding the warm-up periods. If you can convince all your users to switch the 405 off whenever it is not used, I would agree to exclude it from the service contract. Best, jens -----Original Message----- From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Philip Oshel Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 17:17 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: laser lifetimes Listers, We're in the midst of grant-writing and budgets, and I'd like to get some folks' experiences with laser lifetimes and maintenance issues. Specifically, multi-line argon lasers and 405 and 559 diode lasers. These diodes in particular add a fair amount to a service contract. How necessary is it to include the lasers in a service contract? Currently, our old instrument has a single-line 488 argon and a HeNe 543, no contract and no problems, so I'm tending to excluding some or all of the lasers from the contract. But ... Thanks for the information. Phil -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576 |
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In reply to this post by Oshel, Philip Eugene
Hi all,
Back at UCL we had a heavily used Bio-Rad Radiance 2000, installed around 2001. Over the first 6 years [until 2006] the multi-line argon laser was replaced twice* and the far red 633nm diode laser replaced once. I have a feeling the red 543nm laser was also replaced, but can't be sure now [they seem to be most reliable, possibly as they are under 5mW] - the Radiance didn't have a 405nm laser. Over the latter years the system was used very heavily, with 24h time-lapses occurring 4-5 times a week. The argon laser actually lasted far longer being left on semi-permanently, compared to users originally switching it off every-time after use before the next user arrived [might be just luck]. Our Diode lasers are treated as best switched off after use unless you know it will be needed, whereas argon lasers are best left on for the next user [like Hg lamps]. I would say we had parts replaced on the Bio-Rad that totalled up to more than the cost of a couple of lasers over that 6 year period [e.g. new boards/filters/motorised focus drive]. The Bio-Rad also had a serious long running problem that eventually saw the entire lasers+system box being replaced, but I'm pretty sure that happened late on in the first year and would have been covered by the standard 1 year UK guarantee [it all happened before I got there]. The newer 4-laser Leica SP2 confocal needed no lasers over the 3 years before I left, although other parts were replaced. The DAPI 405nm diode did develop problems with brightness, but I don't think it got replaced, just some other optics. Here at WTCHG, Oxford University, our 2.5 year old Zeiss 510 Meta has had the 405nm violet laser [DAPI] replaced in 2008 [along with the AOTF and a lot of other laser optics] as we had a persistent problem in the DAPI channel [now gone]. Otherwise the 510 has had no new lasers. It's other 454/488/514 argon, 633 & 543 diode lasers all seem fine at the moment. One thing I would say is ask for any confocal quote to include a 5 years full maintenance contract, as this will normally be subject to the same large discount applied to the microscope hardware. Likewise ensure you get all the modules you need, otherwise any extras are at full cost [£13k a year maintenance incl. Lasers, and say another £5k for that FRET/FRAP, 3D or time-lapse module]. In our heavily used core facilities the maintenance contract pays for itself, any problem whatever and an engineer arrives promptly, the confocal is in pieces and boxes of new components arrive. Our Core users pay the maintenance charge via overheads, and so use the confocal for 'free'. On a ad-hoc basis its £1,000 a day just for the engineers time, replacement lasers/parts excluded. Plus you aren't given the same priority as those on maintenance contracts. Given electrical/laser safety requirements and public liability I wouldn't swap my own lasers - anything to do with the laser side is always dealt with by the microscope engineers fully familiar with the system [who have access to all the correct parts anyway]. That said I have used ex-Bio-Rad confocal engineers who I trust, and you may have access to locals with considerable expertise [e.g. laser system builders] on-site. Plus non-core facility confocals may get used fairly infrequently, possibly making maintenance contracts an expensive option [light bulbs often last longer left in the cupboard]. I'd also ensure that the microscope is supplied by the confocal manufacturer and fully covered by the maintenance contract. Our Bio-Rad used a Zeiss Axiovert 100M the Prof. bought separately at the same time. So there was an invisible line inside the microscope where the motorised focus moved out of the Bio-Rad maintenance contract into the 'not our problem mate, you'll have to contact Carl Zeiss and pay-[a lot]-as-you go[slowly]' - the irony was lost on them when this continued after Bio-Rad became Zeiss MicroScience - and believe me it was a complete pain. Regards Keith *The Bio-Rad engineer mentioned that their argon lasers had an hours 'on' counter and that they generally failed before the 8,000 hour rated life-time. When Bio-Rad raised this with the laser manufacturer, they responded promptly by removing the external hours counter. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Keith J. Morris, Molecular Cytogenetics and Microscopy Core, Laboratory 00/069 and 00/070, The Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics, Roosevelt Drive, Oxford OX3 7BN, United Kingdom. Telephone: +44 (0)1865 287568 Email: [hidden email] Web-pages: http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/cytogenetics/ -----Original Message----- From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Philip Oshel Sent: 20 January 2009 16:17 To: [hidden email] Subject: laser lifetimes Listers, We're in the midst of grant-writing and budgets, and I'd like to get some folks' experiences with laser lifetimes and maintenance issues. Specifically, multi-line argon lasers and 405 and 559 diode lasers. These diodes in particular add a fair amount to a service contract. How necessary is it to include the lasers in a service contract? Currently, our old instrument has a single-line 488 argon and a HeNe 543, no contract and no problems, so I'm tending to excluding some or all of the lasers from the contract. But ... Thanks for the information. Phil -- Philip Oshel Microscopy Facility Supervisor Biology Department 024C Brooks Hall Central Michigan University Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 (989) 774-3576 |
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What you don't know can't hurt them huh? That's terrible; I'd never deal with a company after they did something like that. When it comes to all these laser systems shop around and get the company's reputation from a variety of sources.
We've had a Nikon system with a yellow HeNe (594) and an Argon (488 only) and (knock on wood) they've been going strong since 2002-ish, with pretty frequent usage. I'm leaving for Photonics West tomorrow! Maybe I'll see some of you there! Craig
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