Re: widefield getting better images than spinning disk

Posted by Michael Giacomelli on
URL: http://confocal-microscopy-list.275.s1.nabble.com/widefield-getting-better-images-than-spinning-disk-tp7585177p7585207.html

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Hi Rafael,

With any confocal system you'll get most of the light from a very thin
section of the sample (on the order of a few microns), and very little
light from elsewhere.  If your specimen is 30 microns thick, and your
confocal section is 3 microns thick, then you'll get about 10% of the
light in the confocal case (ignoring losses due to the disk, etc) as
compared to widefield.  So yes, it'll be a lot darker just because you
are imaging so much less material per pixel.

Using spinning disk rather than ordinary confocal further means that
the illumination is greatly attenuated, but you can compensate for
that just by turning up the laser power.

Mike

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Rafael Jaimes III <[hidden email]> wrote:

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>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm still trying to wrap my head around the light loss situation. So I
> should expect to collect the majority of in-focus light, but overall only
> ~5% light is collected compared to widefield? For excitation, only 1.6% of
> light is transmitted through the disk to the specimen?
>
> I am fairly certain the camera is focused correctly on the pinholes. But,
> I am not sure about the other knob on the top of the Crest, that is one of
> the things I am looking into now.
>
> Thanks,
> Rafael
>
> On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Andrea Latini <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> *****
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>>
>> dear Jeff,
>> collection efficiency CF/WF is 5% to 6% in our systems with 70um pinholes
>> (fill factor 8.2%). 4.6-4.8% with 60um (fill factor 5.8%). about 3-3.5%
>> with
>> 40um pinholes (fill factor 4.2%). values measured at 500nm.
>>
>> hence, my proposal to double check for proper system alignment (pinholes to
>> detector focusing and excitation).
>>
>> regards
>> Andrea
>>
>> Andrea Latini
>> President
>> CrestOptics Srl
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 22 May 2016 18:03:48 +0000, Reece, Jeff (NIH/NIDDK) [C]
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> >*****
>> >To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> >http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> >Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> >*****
>> >
>> >I was wondering how long it would take before Guy responded.  There have
>> been discussions on the listserv in years past about signal as a function
>> of
>> confocal pinhole, and Guy has always stressed this basic concept.  I can't
>> find those previous discussions, but there is a nice graph here that
>> illustrates the concept (scroll down to Figure 6, the graph on the right):
>> >
>> http://www.leica-microsystems.com/science-lab/super-resolution-on-a-heuristic-point-of-view-about-the-resolution-of-a-light-microscope/
>> (disclaimer: this is the only place I could find it on the web; thanks
>> Leica) which makes sense if you look at Figure 3 on the same page, just
>> visually estimating how much of the total light from the psf must be inside
>> the Airy Disk.
>> >So, another way to state the same concept: only 16% of in-focus light is
>> thrown away when the pinhole is ~1 AU (i.e. "confocal" in the general
>> sense).
>> >If anyone has the original references that show the graph of integrated
>> intensity vs AU, or another place it might be on the web for free, I would
>> be interested.  Perhaps those links are with the previous discussion on the
>> listserv that I can't find.
>> >
>> >With the 10x/0.45 lens, and the pinhole at ~3 AU, you are collecting more
>> like 94% of the in-focus light.
>> >And since the FWHM z-resolution is ~20 microns for that pinhole and lens
>> (assuming 500nm as the emission wavelength), then you are collecting ~47%
>> of
>> the out-of-focus light that originates from 10 microns away from the focal
>> plane.
>> >
>> >My understanding of the Crest Disk, from the info I see on their web site,
>> is that throughput on the excitation side is only 1.6%, compared to
>> widefield illumination (disk pulled out).  So if you increase the camera
>> exposure time by a factor of ~70 on the confocal image, the signal levels
>> of
>> the in-focus portion should be similar to the widefield image, if
>> everything
>> is aligned properly.  Theoretically.
>> >
>> >Hope that helps.
>> >Cheers,
>> >Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Guy Cox [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> >Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 1:55 AM
>> >To: [hidden email]
>> >Subject: Re: widefield getting better images than spinning disk
>> >
>> >*****
>> >To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> >http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> >Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> >*****
>> >
>> >Repeat 100 times:
>> >
>> >CONFOCAL ONLY THROWS OUT
>> >OUT OF FOCUS LIGHT!
>> >
>> >The reason spinning disk systems lose light is to attain speed, and has
>> nothing to do with the confocal principle.
>> >
>> >                                   Guy
>> >
>> >Guy Cox, Honorary Associate Professor
>> >School of Medical Sciences
>> >
>> >Australian Centre for Microscopy and Microanalysis, Madsen, F09,
>> University
>> of Sydney, NSW 2006
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Sam Lord
>> >Sent: Sunday, 22 May 2016 10:45 AM
>> >To: [hidden email]
>> >Subject: Re: widefield getting better images than spinning disk
>> >
>> >*****
>> >To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> >http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> >Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> >*****
>> >
>> >I would recommmend setting the exposure time to 100 ms or however long an
>> exposure it takes to get a good image. If the image gets bright but the
>> contrast still looks worse than wide field, then maybe there's an alignment
>> issue. But I suspect your sample is just too dim to image with confocal at
>> 10 ms per frame. Not many samples are bright enough for that.
>> >Remember that confocal is designed to throw out light in order to improve
>> optical slicing.
>>