Re: General question: Software vs. hardware

Posted by Benjamin Smith on
URL: http://confocal-microscopy-list.275.s1.nabble.com/General-question-Software-vs-hardware-tp7589316p7589338.html

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Not sure if this has been said, but this is basically like asking
"screwdriver vs. wrench".  A laser scanning confocal microscope is not
superior to a compound microscope, and the converse is also true, they are
different tools for different tasks.  This is one of the key points I try
to get across to students when I teach them about microscopy, we have
macro, spinning disk, 2P, light sheet, stereo, confocal, STED, STORM, TEM,
SEM, AFM, FIB-SEM, etc., etc, for a reason.  They all excel at tasks that
other systems struggle with.

Along these lines, here are two scenarios:
Scenario 1) You want to get a kHz sample rate of a voltage dye in a
cultured neuron.  In this case, a compound microscope with deconvolution
(or likely even just a simple high-pass filter) is the clear winner as all
the pixels in the frame are temporally correlated (as long as you have CCD
or global shutter CMOS), and the frame rate will be much higher than with
confocal, even with the most cutting edge technologies.

Scenario 2) You want to measure the volume of densely packed nuclei using
DAPI in a whole-mount sample.  Deconvolutions will quickly fall apart on
this task simply because the deeper you go, the vast majority of the total
signal is from out of focus light (much like trying to image a faint star
right next to the sun).  This means that the amount of information you have
about the sample plane itself becomes nearly non-existent.  Conversely,
since confocal microscopes perform the deconvolution before light gets to
the detector, you more or less eliminate this bottleneck caused by the
dynamic range of the detector.

Also, one quick point about deconvolutions.  Unless you measured the PSF in
the sample (such as using TetraSpeck  beads) at a higher resolution than
you acquired your image, you are not adding any information about the
sample.  Rather, you are whittling away information you wish to discard
(i.e. it is a lossy process, much like JPEG compression).  Along these
lines, iterative blind deconvolutions are allowing a computer to guess what
information should be removed.  Thus, just because the image looks better
does not necessarily mean it is correct, otherwise STED, STORM, AFM, and
cryo-EM would be obsolete.

Just my own two cents,
   Ben Smith

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 11:52 AM Feinstein, Timothy N <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Alison,
>
> The signal to noise question strikes me as the key question WRT decon.
> Most software packages default to a setting that seems unrealistic for
> confocal imaging (ie SNR=20), and this leads to a lot of patterning
> artifacts in deconvolved images.  At such high SNR any pixel of data is
> treated as 'real', so background noise gets processed into weird moire-type
> patterns.  This also happens when the algorithm doesn't quite converge and
> you let it run for too many iterations (the default iteration #s tend to be
> set high as well).  It's critical then to tell the software (when possible)
> that your SNR is low, so it gets much more aggressive about detecting and
> removing random noise (at the expense of losing details in the 1-3 pixel
> range).  I would recommend folks take care if using any package that
> doesn't let you correct the SNR.
>
> Honestly, when SNR is set properly I find that noisy images benefit a lot
> more from decon than high-quality cover candidate-type pics.  In addition
> to sharpening and Z blur removal the noise and background removal becomes
> more dramatic (and beneficial for quantitation) the more background and
> noise there is.  This comes up a lot when live imaging when we use resonant
> scanning for speed and low photodamage, but have higher noise as a
> trade-off.  I'd say that as long as you can image at 1.5x-2x Nyquist
> resolution (and the extra time/expense is worth it), even super-noisy
> images will benefit quite a bit.
>
> I understand that we're crossing fingers for the day when everyone has
> GPU-enabled decon running seamlessly during acquisition.  For that to work
> the algorighms need to automatically (accurately) estimate SNR.  That
> doesn't seem like an insurmountable challenge, but I haven't seen it yet.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> TF
>
> Timothy Feinstein, Ph.D.
> Research Scientist
> Department of Developmental Biology
> University of Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
> On 3/18/19, 11:07 AM, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Alison
> North" <[hidden email] on behalf of
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     So this is a very timely discussion because I have been discussing
> with
>     my staff whether there are data sets that should NOT be deconvolved,
> and
>     if so, how does one decide that?  I too attended Jim Pawley's
> wonderful
>     course (he was certainly a huge character as well as an incredibly
>     fantastic microscopist, and he will certainly be remembered by all!),
> so
>     I have generally worked under the assumption that one should
> deconvolve
>     all confocal data.  But I am also very aware of the potential for
>     artifacts if a data set isn't "good enough" for deconvolution.
>     Obviously the ideal situation is to acquire an optimal data set -
>     well-prepared sample, bright staining, Nyquist sampling etc. etc., and
> a
>     high S:N ratio - and by sticking to these rules, our deconvolved
>     DeltaVision images or confocal images of fixed samples have always
>     looked great.  But nowadays we are faced with different scenarios,
>     particularly when you are attempting to do very rapid imaging of live,
>     weakly expressing cells, while attempting to minimize phototoxicity.
> In
>     that case you can end up with pretty lousy S:N ratios, because
>     maintaining cell viability or imaging fast enough is more critical.
>     For example, I have a lovely new iSIM in my lab, for which the initial
>     resolution increase is achieved by the hardware, but the second step
> in
>     resolution increase is via deconvolution.   The whole point of this
>     instrument is for rapid, super-resolution imaging - so we can't simply
>     increase exposure times to improve S:N, turning up the laser power
> will
>     obviously kill the cells, and we can't increase the pixel size or
> we'll
>     lose the resolution.  And I assume a lot of the new types of
>     super-resolution instrument out there must leave you facing the same
>     issue, since live cell imaging invariably forces you to compromise
>     somewhere within the imaging triangle (or hexagon, or whatever we've
> got
>     up to now!).
>
>     Therefore my question is, are there papers out there which have
> compared
>     deconvolution algorithms and looked at the potential for artifacts on
>     really low S:N images, which we could use to advise our researchers on
>     what is the minimum you can get away with before you really shouldn't
> be
>     deconvolving the data set at all? Also, are there papers showing the
>     effect of undersampling in the z-axis on the resulting deconvolved
>     images (as is often the case on our spinning disk system)?  I haven't
>     managed to find any yet (though I confess I've been too busy with
> other
>     stuff to spend too many hours searching!), so if anybody could point
> me
>     to some good references I'd be most grateful.  I have spoken with
>     several renowned microscopists about whether deconvolution is always a
>     good idea under such circumstances, and the gut reaction appears to be
>     no, but I could do with some hard and fast validation for teaching
> purposes.
>
>     Many thanks in advance!
>
>     Alison
>
>
>
>     On 3/18/2019 9:56 AM, Feinstein, Timothy N wrote:
>     > *****
>     > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>     >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DvfjahhKueherhfphxmr-Smw_FhB4QUlg-FsBATM1kl0%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=7V6L2MVDHIM%2BwC0pAgCi3pgsBuFzbd0XQQWFWD%2BTJfY%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     > Post images on
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.imgur.com%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DedOjY0NZEIhVq-zWzgNHHDaTrutHrPj1Rl6rcwE_B4M%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=1c1u00xUm3GBfY%2BbuasN%2FzjLdqR5THU38W7oITOW9k0%3D&amp;reserved=0=
> and include the link in your posting.
>     > *****
>     >
>     > Avi, I really agree with your point.  I feel that people to
> deconvolve any time spatial information is critical, whether they're using
> widefield, CLSM, spinning disc, or light sheet.  It's true that
> deconvolving adds time and data volume and especially cost, but in trade
> you get an image that is substantially sharper, with reduced noise and
> background, and more quantitatively accurate*.
>     >
>     > Regarding whether to just go with a point scanning confocal, I don't
> see it as a simple question of better or worse**.  A nuclear-cytoplasmic
> translocation assay with monolayer cells works just as well on a widefield,
> and (in my experience!) many types of biosensor assay work better with a
> properly set up widefield.  The 16-bit depth of widefield images is nice
> for quantitation, and modern sCMOS cameras have by far the best acquisition
> speeds.  I don't know whether widefields still have a more linear
> relationship between sample brightness and detected signal, but the last
> time I checked that was still true.
>     >
>     > (*) Deconvolution is quantitatively useful as long as people make
> sure to tell the software to preserve the original intensity values.  One
> of my complaints about Hyvolution was that you could not do that, so I just
> used the Huygens package that came with it.  I don't know whether Lightning
> gives you that option...if not then caveat emptor.
>     >
>     > (**) My advice mostly applies to turnkey stuff that any lab can
> implement, not exotic techniques available to folks with specialists or
> engineers on hand.
>     >
>     > Best,
>     >
>     >
>     > T
>     > Timothy Feinstein, Ph.D. esearch Scientist
>     > Department of Developmental Biology
>     > University of Pittsburgh
>     >
>     >
>     > On 3/18/19, 5:07 AM, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Avi
> Jacob" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >      I'll point out, that you can, of course, deconvolve confocal
> images too.
>     >      So, while you can indeed get near confocal quality with
> well-acquired wf
>     >      data after deconvolution, you can also get near SR quality when
>     >      deconvolving a well-acquired stack from a confocal. And then
> you can also
>     >      deconvolve a SR stack and get... well you get the idea! It's
> like an arms
>     >      race.
>     >      I have the Hyvolution and had access for a couple of weeks to
> the Lighting,
>     >      and now confocal images look blurry to me.
>     >      Avi
>     >
>     >      --
>     >      Avi Jacob, Ph.D.
>     >      Kanbar Light Microscopy Unit
>     >      The Mina & Everard Goodman Faculty of Life Sciences
>     >      Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan 529002, Israel
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >      On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 6:04 PM George McNamara <
> [hidden email]>
>     >      wrote:
>     >
>     >      > *****
>     >      > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go
> to:
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flists.umn.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FA0-253Dconfocalmicroscopy-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3DefIAtI3pbBSoyhJucB0DkDu4RXkFkgBZfGrO4PiXrfc-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3D9Uk5ZZzc8LP7V7Oj2aFSRbVluY0mpE-7XPLYdsyviMk%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=Jv2%2FvAnr1srE%2BjcBXMWe2mVTvO9rowobKYY65DWIRTo%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      > Post images on
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.imgur.com-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3DMNM8i3iDaQuMA9LF766-252FyvCyp94jmie4IaC5qIEWclA-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DGy99yAWcbr6KHUA0kYKb4K-wOHL4iNGJsDecMfZ8X-M%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=2N%2BmlW5RE%2BAFuG%2FuM68FeI9LOfI1m2PlNu23S9eIQts%3D&amp;reserved=0=
> and include the link in your posting.
>     >      > *****
>     >      >
>     >      > Hi Mika,
>     >      >
>     >      > White et al 1987 (
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fjcb.rupress.org-252Fcontent-252F105-252F1-252F41.long-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3Da6oZCfeD7Gt4nYMS89PcklnveCdDLLkksafp3tCyld0-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3D67LyqPF2rBiBDSWJVZeG7TpJz1o4MRDf8ZyLysbeKx4%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=R3V0RHiTDpGkJUJyI8Q7SDJZjKdk3uDMgmBEPLrzcUw%3D&amp;reserved=0=
> ) made a
>     >      > compelling case for point scanning confocal microscopes:
> collect just
>     >      > the in focus light with instant gratification. The case has
> not changed,
>     >      > the hardware (especially data deluge side) has gotten a lot
> better. I
>     >      > note that both widefield detectors and PMT/APD/hybrid
> detectors/others
>     >      > have gotten a lot better in the 32 years from 1987! As have
> the optics
>     >      > and automation.
>     >      >
>     >      > Paul Goodwin 2014 (
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov-252Fpubmed-252F24974028-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3DGDve8BuxhLDAdBPKywRQoMTYV-252BqSk9aMcz2WrZCHPU8-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DPZ10eaR5B-jwZmf5y920Z41iJYUJcji_VsufABIeX84%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=dIZN7CiQOTIt24N0mwi0QgDFkcFcVScVNxaoDuS24HM%3D&amp;reserved=0=
> ) made
>     >      > a nice case for quantitative deconvolution microscopy (and on
> very high
>     >      > quality specimens, ~10% improvement in resolution compared to
> simple
>     >      > widefield), but historically slow.
>     >      >
>     >      > Now, with 'instant gratification' spatial deconvolution,
> thanks to the
>     >      > GPU revolution (NVidia RTX Titan~16 Teraflops [S.P.], 24 Gb
> ram, $2500
>     >      > ... not including the deconvolution software module price),
> widefield,
>     >      > spinning disk (and slightly exotic variants like iSIM, DMD
> based, etc,
>     >      > see also new THUNDER Imagers [see p.p.s.]), multiphoton (I'm
> excited
>     >      > about the price point of recent fiber lasers, which could
> become much
>     >      > better price if achieve 'economy of scale'), and of course,
> point
>     >      > scanning confocal microscopes.
>     >      >
>     >      > Spatial deconvolution (especially if someone $uccessfully
> implements
>     >      > joint spatial deconvolution and spectral unmixing, multiple
> cameras -
>     >      > for 4 cameras see Babcock 2018, mentions aiming for 8
> cameras) helps
>     >      > with Expansion Microscopy and/or DNA-PAINT, to go
> super-resolution ...
>     >      > really single molecule counting (and DNA-PAINT eliminates the
> classic
>     >      > issue of PALM/STORM/FPALM of not counting every molecule).
> Sure,
>     >      > DNA-PAINT (like STORM etc) have the issue of a whole lotta
> images
>     >      > acquired. Data deluge: who cares? Jerome & Price's 10th
> commandment of
>     >      > confocal imaging is: "10. Storage Media Is Essentially Free
> and Infinite".
>     >      >
>     >      > More significantly, DNA-PAINT and related methods (single
> molecule RNA
>     >      > FISH, scRNAseq -> MERFISH = Moffitt 2018 as example, etc)
> also enable
>     >      > multiplex -- with single molecule counting -- to whatever
> plex is needed
>     >      > to answer the 'biological question(s)' being posed.
>     >      >
>     >      > All that said, the installed base of research grade point
> scanning
>     >      > confocal microscopes is large (5000+) and efficient at
> acquiring high
>     >      > quality images, to the point that user's sample preparation
> (and
>     >      > avoidance of purchasing stuff from 'Santa Crap' and similar
> companies)
>     >      > is much more limiting than the microscopes.
>     >      >
>     >      > George
>     >      >
>     >      > p.s. a couple of references not included in above:
>     >      >
>     >      > W. Gray (Jay) Jerome, Robert L. Price 2018... Basic Confocal
> Microscopy
>     >      > second edition
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Flink.springer.com-252Fbook-252F10.1007-25252F978-2D3-2D319-2D97454-2D5-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3D-252FMQlH4t81Pk9tNTHR8fsn1tQc0JAc2nc-252BnO2gdk60Us-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3D1JXaiNNf-bzSdjywfRJ8gowB9Yq0uGNulQMlGeSMxkE%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=3ua69ygadJRYIJltAT7qPoJzNd%2B16PWCCeNLQF13WIg%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > Expansion ... X10 protocol ... Truckenbrodt 2019 Nat Protoc,
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.nature.com-252Farticles-252Fs41596-2D018-2D0117-2D3-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3DCF-252Fp9frimbrxZiMDwLWZjzuyoyQbCuKp4EcvaL3Wmmw-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DYeXbqWFX0mMxO3nVRt59pt6RJYlwIPBMZRePQbiF1yU%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288894390&amp;sdata=TEBfgj6Gg%2Bt02BMyFZCLb8%2Feb5nOyAJmnftouvPd1qY%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > DNA-PAINT acronym soup review ... Nieves 2018 Genes,
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.mdpi.com-252F2073-2D4425-252F9-252F12-252F621-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3Diwx3Z1Pgr4a2SObO9F47jEtqlfsYQFk2R4gu0Qv1uJM-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DtJY5yunlGClYXKHrXuCDe5KU8D-qhc1ZS26_KuNdXpE%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=RUgIPB%2Fi0n6i28lOhKZAGSrlyirYALd0l75r5qhZCMk%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > Babcock 2018 (4 --> 8 cameras, single molecule localization
> microscopy
>     >      > with $1550 CMOS cameras) ...
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.nature.com-252Farticles-252Fs41598-2D018-2D19981-2Dz-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257860747-26amp-3Bsdata-3DwN-252FHP30wNUE0-252BJWeFJIJFsBk32ZhD4DfKi9gc3ZTz2c-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DTIL4NaeETsqkjycmtWw_CnoEWvrpY1Tkr_SAmz-QkRM%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=D26AicKRsRoIaCGZdaxaF5OKXfGuo8yS0zvSVgmoBwY%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > Moffitt et al 2018 ...
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fscience.sciencemag.org-252Fcontent-252F362-252F6416-252Feaau5324.long-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3DFR98V6ldS9Q38wI59kly9U8pCzp92Vzc1J6T8ydCU9w-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3D55vzrzqpm3n5Z7logfovDr0N73h1gF7gldtYUSkZ6c0%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=CQMKMRjzbJVLgZjtpCzzZSwaNvCbt72baFvqppyebSI%3D&amp;reserved=0=
> and
>     >      > commentary
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fscience.sciencemag.org-252Fcontent-252F362-252F6416-252F749-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3Do0B379uuh-252FrB6gS9n6lG-252BjAZeztiYHZVmICwX4ghKh8-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DXeBps6CWTMM197evmy1n1uC5qOcvU8mAN95bEPmieiQ%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=um%2F%2FPNffQLOyrTsQcJymSuR2XwRcVnNMwMgQ6qYy19A%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > ***
>     >      >
>     >      > Some resolution numbers:
>     >      >
>     >      > 1.4 NA objective lens ... 500 nm wavelength .. dxy = 0.61 *
> wqavelength
>     >      > / NA (I routinely drop the 0.61 from 0.61)
>     >      >
>     >      > 0.6 * 500 / 1.4 = 214 nm
>     >      >
>     >      > widefiel deconvolution (re: Goodwin 2014) ~10% better ... 193
> nm (if
>     >      > pixel size matched or interpolate optimally).
>     >      >
>     >      > point scanning confocal -- Zeiss has a nice PDF, "Zeiss 2008
> Principles
>     >      > - Confocal Laser Scanning Microscopy" (see fig 10) on confocal
>     >      > resolution wrt 1 and smaller pinhole size, source of the
> values below,
>     >      >
>     >      > 1 Airy unit: 0.51 * 500 / 1.4 = 182 nm.
>     >      >
>     >      > 0.5 Airy unit ... 0.44 * 500 / 1.4 = 157 nm ... ~0.25 photons
> throughput
>     >      > (which doesn't matter if target is photostable).
>     >      >
>     >      > 0.2 Airy unit ... you can ask your Zeiss rep about AiryScan
> (and
>     >      > FastAiryScan).
>     >      >
>     >      > 0.1 Airy unit ... 0.37 * 500 / 1.4 = 132 nm ... ~0.10 photons
> throughput.
>     >      >
>     >      > Most modern point scanning confocal microscopes have a 405 nm
> laser, so
>     >      > if using BV421 (and ignoring potential photobleaching for a
> moment),
>     >      >
>     >      > 1 Airy unit: 0.51 * 421 / 1.4 = 153 nm.
>     >      >
>     >      > or in reflection mode, i.e. nanodiamond or nanogold,
>     >      >
>     >      > 1 Airy unit: 0.51 * 405 / 1.4 = 147 nm ... and reflection
> implies no
>     >      > photobleaching, so infinite number of photons (though also no
> blinking,
>     >      > so not usually eligible for precision localization) ...
>     >      >
>     >      > 0.1 Airy unit: 0.37 * 405 / 1.4 = 107 nm
>     >      >
>     >      > and not going completely exotic with NA (i.e. 1.65), if
> perfectly
>     >      > refractive index match with a fairly conventional 1.49 NA
> lens, and
>     >      > inreflectance:
>     >      >
>     >      > 0.1 Airy unit: 0.37 * 405 / 1.49 = 100.57 nm
>     >      >
>     >      > I think I'd rather invest a DNA-PAINT friendly rig than deal
> with 157 to
>     >      > 101 nm.
>     >      >
>     >      > DNA-PAINT makes resolution irrelevant, if you use it (and
> don't run out
>     >      > of disk space or time or money), since precision localization
> is
>     >      > resolution divided by square root of number of photons, ex.
> 250 nm XY
>     >      > resolution / sqrt(1,000,000) = 0.25 nm, and could increase
> number of
>     >      > photons per target further, but why bother?
>     >      >
>     >      > ***
>     >      >
>     >      > point scanning confocal microscopes are also great platforms
> for
>     >      > F-Techniques, such as FastFLIM (aka rapidFLIM, etc, much
> faster than
>     >      > classic TCSPC slow FLIM), FCS, FCCS, see Liu 2008,
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov-252Fpubmed-252F18387308-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3DZQTosrSoPFpCa8Y3IdEa9Xz-252B4RHC8JO4gBppHmzkazo-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DmeRUIZdF3FLQZGyok4cxyc4AP4yq2lXX41Vt8q9WMmw%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=XTEH306i5ez7vKq2cHKCVQlSphNiFIdnqIXmwnOmyNw%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > ***
>     >      >
>     >      > p.p.s. Disclosures I am ...
>     >      >
>     >      > 1. currently hosting a Leica THUNDER Imager tour event (ends
> Monday
>     >      > 3/18/2019 afternoon) ...  see pdf download page,
>     >      >
>     >      > THUNDER Technology Note
>     >      > THUNDER Imagers: How Do They Really Work?
>     >      >
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.leica-2Dmicrosystems.com-252Fscience-2Dlab-252Fthunder-2Dtechnology-2Dnote-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3DauRUORuEKAir87-252Bbw7RHyTR9IxxrLYl1g3bFBiRTXBM-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DLmFGYl_Icu6b9AAIYnHkoiH26bRZ688ODEc9I6k8yco%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=5ZGLmCZt85tKxH1CJYM%2Bvul5S4qXw9%2FOnyWG80m2QxM%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      > 2. hosting Nikon confocal demos in May 2019.
>     >      >
>     >      > 3. aiming to co-host with ISS a FastFLIM (one day)
> mini-symposium this
>     >      > summer.
>     >      >
>     >      > 4. an unpaid advisor for Gary Brooker for FINCH/CINCH, re:
>     >      >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov-252Fpubmed-252F28261321-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3DuVw0kiW1baZV0RJv-252Bk1ObKznhw51pemnCMehjHkUa2g-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DKC1HMkiDzpE2DLsuj1I2nHvopwFVMMc0GVecDV-fWkM%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=QC0LyEp9hbSKOgpV%2Fi%2B%2FABGDX4az02fRVdMZ4Ovufps%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      > On 3/17/2019 10:43 AM, Mika Ruonala wrote:
>     >      > > *****
>     >      > > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv,
> go to:
>     >      > >
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Flists.umn.edu-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fwa-253FA0-253Dconfocalmicroscopy-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3DdHOCjeBda4sSZPf-252FB2-252B5Sv3Q8Qzcs708p4we8vHf-252FIg-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DqZ-tdRwhHG172zv4uHPeAJMNeIIHNxozhQudV-hF2kE%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288904398&amp;sdata=BnCAxorVJgPSFw70Kr%2B401vq4hMlZhvzdkivum9XGNE%3D&amp;reserved=0=
>     >      > > Post images on
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.imgur.com-26amp-3Bdata-3D02-257C01-257Ctnf8-2540PITT.EDU-257Ce2895884dda94858a22408d6ab8114ff-257C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d-257C1-257C0-257C636884968257870756-26amp-3Bsdata-3DcnhzoWOP4RwDR622fn447aQVxW8ZBI3D0utze67RiGg-253D-26amp-3Breserved-3D0%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3DJeTkUgVztGMmhKYjxsy2rfoWYibK1YmxXez1G3oNStg%26r%3DRBx0-WJrAO5vwSOLNmFbqYvikvIZS5ns3-USwvMOuLo%26m%3DjqVgS0XjNSmttSUahDdaDaAsBeK67RlyWHCj8N7ZMJw%26s%3DYzF36y8eV4SG3E0LJEDu-9AMm3Nh05dwp_XKhB6BUyU%26e&amp;data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cdc51ccda0c794046d93408d6abb362a8%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636885184288914407&amp;sdata=ec0HIKuOMVqlLU7knyQ1JdS1B6c1BMCIb%2FYsHIFdYbM%3D&amp;reserved=0=
> and include the link in your
>     >      > posting.
>     >      > > *****
>     >      > >
>     >      > > Hi.
>     >      > > There are software solutions that are able to create image
> data from
>     >      > wide-field and even microscope systems with seemingly similar
> quality to
>     >      > that obtained from confocal systems.
>     >      > >
>     >      > > The comparison of acquisition vs. software is essentially a
> comparison
>     >      > of image acquisition vs. image processing. While a software
> solution is way
>     >      > cheaper than a hardware solution if it is able to produce
> image data with
>     >      > equal quality why would anyone choose to invest to a confocal
> anymore?
>     >      > >
>     >      > > I’m looking forward to a vidid discussion!
>     >      > >
>     >      > >> m
>     >      >
>     >
>     >
>     --
>     Alison J. North, Ph.D.,
>     Research Associate Professor and
>     Senior Director of the Bio-Imaging Resource Center,
>     The Rockefeller University,
>     1230 York Avenue,
>     New York,
>     NY 10065.
>     Tel: office    ++ 212 327 7488
>     Tel: lab        ++ 212 327 7486
>     Fax:            ++ 212 327 7489
>
>
>

--
Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
University of California, Berkeley
195 Life Sciences Addition
Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
Tel  (510) 642-9712
Fax (510) 643-6791
e-mail: [hidden email]
http://vision.berkeley.edu/?page_id=5635 <http://vision.berkeley.edu/>