Best dual camera CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution?

[Kai Schleicher]

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Dear list,

our facility is currently looking into whats the "best" high-end CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution, namely

1) Andor Dragonfly
2) Nikon CSU-W1
3) Visitron CSU-W1

Besides testing in the field, it would also be ideal for us to learn from people that own one of these systems.

So if you have one of these systems we'd greatly appreciate feedback and how they perform in your lab or facility.

Thanks and cheers,
Kai

[Zdenek Svindrych-2]

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Hi Kai,
I don't think Andor Dragonfly is based on Yokogawa CSU-W1. It looks very
different mechanically. I haven't yet had a chance to take a Dragonfly and a
W1 apart to see if there are any common parts, though...

I haven't worked with the W1 much (but I liked the old CSU-X1); the
Dragonfly seems to be slow on some operations, such as moving the disk,
moving the camera splitting dichroic (for the two camera version) or moving
the camera magnification changers.
If you really want W1, Andor does not seem to offer it anymore (pity,
because of the nice Borealis feature). But there are other companies, add 3i
to your list. So it boils down to the features of laser combiner, camera
selection and, most importantly, the software user interface.

One more note, it's quite straightforward to add OPRA-style superresolution
(something like microlens-based MSIM, conceptually identical to Image
Scanning Microscopy) to a spinning disk confocal, and Yokogawa implemented
it already in 2015 (see DOI:10.1364/OE.23.015003). I hope they're working on
it, in which case it should be commercially available soon :-).

No commercial interest.

Goo luck!

zdenek
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth
email: [hidden email]

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: Kai Schleicher <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 28. 11. 2017 11:46:38
Předmět: Best dual camera CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution?
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Dear list,

our facility is currently looking into whats the "best" high-end CSU-W1
Spinning-Disc solution, namely

1) Andor Dragonfly
2) Nikon CSU-W1
3) Visitron CSU-W1

Besides testing in the field, it would also be ideal for us to learn from
people that own one of these systems.

So if you have one of these systems we'd greatly appreciate feedback and how
they perform in your lab or facility.

Thanks and cheers,
Kai
"

[Lisa Cameron]

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My impressions/understanding -

The Andor Dragonfly is not slow.
If anything it's faster than the disk speed on the Yokogawa W1.
To change pinhole sizes on the W1, there are 2 separate disks slid in and
out of place.
Andor has one disk and shifts the disk slightly to use 2 different size
pinholes which are contained on one disk.
Andor built their own spinning disk system incorporating the Borealis
technology - flattening the field of illumination and achieving greater
throughput of illumination signal than older models of Yokogawa.
Yokogawa W1 has some improvement in light throughput, but does not have
Borealis, as this is a patented Andor technology now implemented in the
Dragonfly.
Andor has at least 5 models  - depending on diameter of pinholes (25um or
40um, or both), number of cameras, and additional options such as TIRF and
3d localization optics, but also has a spinning disk only option (called
Dragonfly 200).

The Yokogawa W1 also has several models with 2 pinhole sizes, and one or 2
cameras and can be attached to any microscope company stand (within reason,
I guess).

So, Nikon W1 is Nikon's implementation of Yokogawa's W1 system on a Nikon
stand with Elements software.
Olympus also sells their spinning disk confocal system with a Yokogawa W1
with Cell Sense software.
And other distributors will package a W1 - BioVision in the US, Visitron,
etc.
Options are based on software, laser combiner, camera choices, and
stand/objective choices.

The disk spinning speed on both the Andor Dragonfly and the Yokogawa W1 are
slower than the Yokogawa CSU-X1 because the disks are larger in size to
accommodate the pinholes being farther apart.
The increased distance between pinholes on the disk reduces cross-talk
between the holes and allows imaging at greater depth farther from the
coverslip than the Yokogawa CSU-X1.

If you have really thin samples, the Yokogawa CSU-X1 may still the best
system.

Testing options with your samples is the best way to see what will work
well for you.

For increased resolution, I recommend checking out Ricardo Henriques's lab
publication on SRRF - super-resolution radial fluctuations.
https://bitbucket.org/rhenriqueslab/nanoj-srrf/wiki/Home
It can be implemented in many systems and software including
micromanager/ImageJ/Fiji, but has also been incorporated with Andor EMCCD
cameras - separately or on Dragonfly systems.

I think available options may depend on your geographical location as to
who are your distributors.

No commercial interest. And I do not have a W1 or Dragonfly currently, but
do have a CSU-X1.


Feel free to contact me offline -
I'd also be interested in others' impressions,

Lisa Cameron
Light Microscopy Core Facility
Duke University
[hidden email]


On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 2:31 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Kai,
> I don't think Andor Dragonfly is based on Yokogawa CSU-W1. It looks very
> different mechanically. I haven't yet had a chance to take a Dragonfly and
> a
> W1 apart to see if there are any common parts, though...
>
> I haven't worked with the W1 much (but I liked the old CSU-X1); the
> Dragonfly seems to be slow on some operations, such as moving the disk,
> moving the camera splitting dichroic (for the two camera version) or moving
> the camera magnification changers.
> If you really want W1, Andor does not seem to offer it anymore (pity,
> because of the nice Borealis feature). But there are other companies, add
> 3i
> to your list. So it boils down to the features of laser combiner, camera
> selection and, most importantly, the software user interface.
>
> One more note, it's quite straightforward to add OPRA-style superresolution
> (something like microlens-based MSIM, conceptually identical to Image
> Scanning Microscopy) to a spinning disk confocal, and Yokogawa implemented
> it already in 2015 (see DOI:10.1364/OE.23.015003). I hope they're working
> on
> it, in which case it should be commercially available soon :-).
>
> No commercial interest.
>
> Goo luck!
>
> zdenek
> --
> Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
> Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
> Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
> Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth
> email: [hidden email]
>
> ---------- Původní e-mail ----------
> Od: Kai Schleicher <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 28. 11. 2017 11:46:38
> Předmět: Best dual camera CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution?
> "*****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear list,
>
> our facility is currently looking into whats the "best" high-end CSU-W1
> Spinning-Disc solution, namely
>
> 1) Andor Dragonfly
> 2) Nikon CSU-W1
> 3) Visitron CSU-W1
>
> Besides testing in the field, it would also be ideal for us to learn from
> people that own one of these systems.
>
> So if you have one of these systems we'd greatly appreciate feedback and
> how
> they perform in your lab or facility.
>
> Thanks and cheers,
> Kai
> "
>

[Karl Kilborn]

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** Commercial Response **

Dear Kai,

My colleagues in Europe may have already contacted you, but our company, Intelligent Imaging Innovations (3i), produces two systems based on the Yokogawa CSU-W1: Marianas and VIVO.

3i was one of the first companies to integrate the CSU-W1 and has also developed a novel technique for more than doubling the excitation efficiency through the spinning disk and homogenizing the illumination field.

We have a number of spinning disk systems in Europe, often set up as multi-modal instruments that incorporate multiple cameras, TIRF, point-scanning photomanipulation, computer-generated holographic photomanipulation, and frequency domain FLIM.

Please contact [hidden email] for more information.

Sincerely,

                Karl

-----
Karl Kilborn, PhD
Co-President
Intelligent Imaging Innovations, Inc
3509 Ringsby Court
Denver, CO  80216

[James Kerin]

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*****COMMERCIAL RESPONSE*****
Dear Kai,
Apologies for inserting another post from an organisation with a commercial interest, but it is relevant here to point out that the Crest X-Light V2 spinning disk from Crest Optic (Which we supply and integrate) is an excellent option for fast, large field of view imaging. This system has options available to fully illuminate and image from conventional sensors right up to&nbsp; the full field of the Photometrics Prime 95B-25 on the new Nikon Ti2 frame. It can be supplied with a range of different and interchangeable disks with pinhole patterns optimised for high or low NA objectives, spiral patterns for very high speed imaging, or even dual patterns. The X-Light is fully motorised as standard with excitation, dichroic and emission wheels and also includes a motorised bypass mode for compatibility with TIRF / Widefield and other modalities.
We typically integrate the X-light as part of a multi-modal imaging system with fast scanning TIRF, random access FRAP and a variety of super-resolution approaches. If you are interested in more details of any of this please do get in touch
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Dr Martyn Reynolds
Head of Advanced Imaging
https://www.cairn-research.co.uk
Direct: + 44 (0)7795 304090
(Sent Via James' email account)
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

&nbsp;
 
&nbsp;
 
&nbsp;

&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

&nbsp;




On  11/28/2017, 04:44pm, Kai Schleicher ([hidden email]) wrote:
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*****
 

 
Dear list,
 

 
our facility is currently looking into whats the "best" high-end CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution, namely
 

 
1) Andor Dragonfly
 
2) Nikon CSU-W1
 
3) Visitron CSU-W1
 

 
Besides testing in the field, it would also be ideal for us to learn from people that own one of these systems.
 

 
So if you have one of these systems we'd greatly appreciate feedback and how they perform in your lab or facility.
 

 
Thanks and cheers,
 
Kai

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Dear Kai, dear all

we have a CSU-W1 spinning disk setup provided by Nikon (microscope, autofocus and software) and Andor (EMCCD camera and CSU-W1 unit with Borealis) for more then one year.
All in all we are satisfied with the performance of the system and the flexibility the Nikon NIS software offers.

However, there are a few technical problems with the CSU-W1 which Andor could not manage to solve until now although we had several visits from engineers and they tried hard.

First, somehow there seems to be some dust inside the SD unit. Although the system has now cleaned and additionally sealed by the engineers, we see after some time dust particles again on the image.

Second, there is quite some lateral shift between two images if we change the dichroics between image acquisition (one camera). This shift is larger then should be expected  - according to Andor - and it is larger if we use the 20x objective and smaller if we acquired the same image with an 100x objective.

Third, we see some kind of weak ghost images: parts of the image structures appear again in other parts of the image but as much weaker structures. We see this with all lasers and filter combinations. The ghost images move in opposite directions if we move the sample. There seem to be some internal reflections the source of this but until now there is no solution to this problem.

It would be very usefull to hear if other places have similar problems with the CSU-W1 unit or if these are problems only with the Andor/Borealis combination? Are there solutions for these problems around?

Best wishes, Anje

[mcammer]

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You say you have had the system for more than a year, but was the system delivered and installed with these problems?  If yes, unless someone in your lab has tinkered with the system and played with the compents without Andor's supervision or permission, then Andor (as would any other manufacturer/vendor) has a responsibility to make this work even if it means replacing large components.  A new system should be installed working at or better than specification.  I don;t know the law in Germany, but if this were in the US, depending on what state you were in and/or what the PO says, this may be a contractual requirement.

Michael Cammer, Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016
C: 914-309-3270  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>    http://microscopynotes.com/
https://med.nyu.edu/research/research-resources/scientific-cores-shared-resources/microscopy-laboratory


________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Anje Sporbert <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 11:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Best dual camera CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution?

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*****

Dear Kai, dear all

we have a CSU-W1 spinning disk setup provided by Nikon (microscope, autofocus and software) and Andor (EMCCD camera and CSU-W1 unit with Borealis) for more then one year.
All in all we are satisfied with the performance of the system and the flexibility the Nikon NIS software offers.

However, there are a few technical problems with the CSU-W1 which Andor could not manage to solve until now although we had several visits from engineers and they tried hard.

First, somehow there seems to be some dust inside the SD unit. Although the system has now cleaned and additionally sealed by the engineers, we see after some time dust particles again on the image.

Second, there is quite some lateral shift between two images if we change the dichroics between image acquisition (one camera). This shift is larger then should be expected  - according to Andor - and it is larger if we use the 20x objective and smaller if we acquired the same image with an 100x objective.

Third, we see some kind of weak ghost images: parts of the image structures appear again in other parts of the image but as much weaker structures. We see this with all lasers and filter combinations. The ghost images move in opposite directions if we move the sample. There seem to be some internal reflections the source of this but until now there is no solution to this problem.

It would be very usefull to hear if other places have similar problems with the CSU-W1 unit or if these are problems only with the Andor/Borealis combination? Are there solutions for these problems around?

Best wishes, Anje

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[Ivo Telley]

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Dear Kai,
We have been working with one of the first Andor W1 scanners of its time, connected to a Nikon Ti body, working with it for 4 years now. I must admit that I regret the decision we made at the time.

Ours is a single disk (50µm pinhole), single camera port unit, initially run with a Zyla4.2 sCMOS camera, and we have later extended it with a TuCam allowing the switch between this one and the iXon Ultra 888 EMCCD (with 2x post-magnification to meet Nyquist). At the time of purchase the Borealis unit for flat illumination has not been available.

As has been mentioned already, one of the biggest flaws of the W1 design is the dust ingress; it is mostly caused by the ventilation of the electronics, the space of which is not sealed from the space of the optical path. That was not the case with the smaller X1 scanner, for example.  That means that the difference in pressure causes air influx from the microscope body. Andor tried to solved that by installing a new adapter with a glass window, and it improved a little but honestly not much. At some point, Andor provided a “kit” that came from Yokogawa directly, which consisted of a few metal parts that were supposed to solve the air movement problems, but it has also not improved much. Thus, Andor has been doing cleaning maintenance by sealing the body as much as possible - in house and at the headquarters. Despite these measures we have dust particles flying through the focal plane where the spinning disk is, and they show up a bright particle signals in the images. As a consequence of dust ingress, the dichroic mirror, which sits between the pinhole and the micro-lens disks, is continuously “sputtered" with particles due to the disk turning and air/dust being propelled, and we have to clean it fairly regularly (~monthly).

We think that we are not the only one with this massive problem as we have heard from others reporting the same. I suspect that this dust ingress issue will never be solved satisfactorily unless the design of the W1 body is changed => Dragonfly

Clearly, no commercial interest whatsoever, just a word of caution.

Regards,
Ivo Telley





Ivo A. Telley, PhD
Instituto Gulbenkian de Ciência (IGC)
Rua da Quinta Grande, 6
2780-156 Oeiras, Portugal
Phone: [phone]
http://www.igc.gulbenkian.pt/itelley

[Roland Nitschke]

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Dear Anje,

I have just a short  idea, if the ghost images and may be the lateral
shift are due to the dichroics mounted in the wrong orientation in the
filter changer. may be this should be discussed but also checked again
by ANDOR or you, if you have good access to the dichroics. Also the
mirror directing the light inside the Nikon to/from the objective could
produce such kind of problems, but I doubt that Nikon could have such a
general problem not popping up everywhere. Best would be to change all
dichroics in the W1 and see if the problem remains.

I also totally agree with Michael that if not solved it has to be
exchanged (W1 unit) by Andor as it is  a major problem for a 400k€ + system.

Best wishes

Roland

___________________________

Albert-Ludwigs-University Freiburg
Life Imaging Center (LIC) in ZBSA
Microscopy and Image Analysis Platform (MIAP)
Dr. Roland Nitschke
Habsburgerstr.49
D-79104 Freiburg
Germany
___________________________
E-mail: [hidden email]
phone: [phone] or 2902
fax: [phone]
web LIC:  https://miap.eu/miap-units/life-imaging-center-lic/
web MIAP: https://www.miap.eu/

Am 05.12.2017 um 17:55 schrieb Anje Sporbert:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Kai, dear all
>
> we have a CSU-W1 spinning disk setup provided by Nikon (microscope, autofocus and software) and Andor (EMCCD camera and CSU-W1 unit with Borealis) for more then one year.
> All in all we are satisfied with the performance of the system and the flexibility the Nikon NIS software offers.
>
> However, there are a few technical problems with the CSU-W1 which Andor could not manage to solve until now although we had several visits from engineers and they tried hard.
>
> First, somehow there seems to be some dust inside the SD unit. Although the system has now cleaned and additionally sealed by the engineers, we see after some time dust particles again on the image.
>
> Second, there is quite some lateral shift between two images if we change the dichroics between image acquisition (one camera). This shift is larger then should be expected  - according to Andor - and it is larger if we use the 20x objective and smaller if we acquired the same image with an 100x objective.
>
> Third, we see some kind of weak ghost images: parts of the image structures appear again in other parts of the image but as much weaker structures. We see this with all lasers and filter combinations. The ghost images move in opposite directions if we move the sample. There seem to be some internal reflections the source of this but until now there is no solution to this problem.
>
> It would be very usefull to hear if other places have similar problems with the CSU-W1 unit or if these are problems only with the Andor/Borealis combination? Are there solutions for these problems around?
>
> Best wishes, Anje
>

[WILDE Geraint]

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Commercial response from Andor

Dear all,

I would like to state that it in developing Dragonfly, a completely new design, one of our goals was to prevent the dust ingress we had sadly experienced on the Yokogawa CSU-W1. Consequently, the Dragonfly is fully sealed from dust ingress, by use of gaskets with “slot and blade” interlinked panels making up the entire enclosure. Moreover Dragonfly is passively cooled, thereby avoiding internal fans, which are a major source of contamination, as mentioned by Ivo.

While we no longer sell the W1, we maintain our commitment to customers under our obsolescence policy, in which we offer service, support and repair for a period of five years from the notice of discontinuation. If you are an Andor customer and have a dust problem on the W1, please let us know.

Regarding the question of “reflections”, we have found that the dichroic filters in W1 can be overfilled with laser illumination, leading to scattering and waveguiding into the dichroic. This can produce background artefacts in both the standard and Borealis illumination modes. We have a service solution to this issue and again would ask Andor customers to contact us for a solution.

Kind regards

Geraint Wilde

Product Manager for Microscopy Systems.
*****************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roland Nitschke
Sent: 07 December 2017 14:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: -|EXT|- Re: [CONFOCALMICROSCOPY] Best dual camera CSU-W1 Spinning-Disc solution?

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Dear Anje,

I have just a short  idea, if the ghost images and may be the lateral shift are due to the dichroics mounted in the wrong orientation in the filter changer. may be this should be discussed but also checked again by ANDOR or you, if you have good access to the dichroics. Also the mirror directing the light inside the Nikon to/from the objective could produce such kind of problems, but I doubt that Nikon could have such a general problem not popping up everywhere. Best would be to change all dichroics in the W1 and see if the problem remains.

I also totally agree with Michael that if not solved it has to be exchanged (W1 unit) by Andor as it is  a major problem for a 400k€ + system.

Best wishes

Roland

___________________________

Albert-Ludwigs-University Freiburg
Life Imaging Center (LIC) in ZBSA
Microscopy and Image Analysis Platform (MIAP) Dr. Roland Nitschke
Habsburgerstr.49
D-79104 Freiburg
Germany
___________________________
E-mail: [hidden email]
phone: [phone] or 2902
fax: [phone]
web LIC:  https://miap.eu/miap-units/life-imaging-center-lic/
web MIAP: https://www.miap.eu/

Am 05.12.2017 um 17:55 schrieb Anje Sporbert:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear Kai, dear all
>
> we have a CSU-W1 spinning disk setup provided by Nikon (microscope, autofocus and software) and Andor (EMCCD camera and CSU-W1 unit with Borealis) for more then one year.
> All in all we are satisfied with the performance of the system and the flexibility the Nikon NIS software offers.
>
> However, there are a few technical problems with the CSU-W1 which Andor could not manage to solve until now although we had several visits from engineers and they tried hard.
>
> First, somehow there seems to be some dust inside the SD unit. Although the system has now cleaned and additionally sealed by the engineers, we see after some time dust particles again on the image.
>
> Second, there is quite some lateral shift between two images if we change the dichroics between image acquisition (one camera). This shift is larger then should be expected  - according to Andor - and it is larger if we use the 20x objective and smaller if we acquired the same image with an 100x objective.
>
> Third, we see some kind of weak ghost images: parts of the image structures appear again in other parts of the image but as much weaker structures. We see this with all lasers and filter combinations. The ghost images move in opposite directions if we move the sample. There seem to be some internal reflections the source of this but until now there is no solution to this problem.
>
> It would be very usefull to hear if other places have similar problems with the CSU-W1 unit or if these are problems only with the Andor/Borealis combination? Are there solutions for these problems around?
>
> Best wishes, Anje
>

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