Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

[James Jonkman-2]

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Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).

Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  

Bug or Feature?
-----------------
So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?

Cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
   James Jonkman, Manager
   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
   University Health Network
   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
   www.aomf.ca

[Armstrong, Brian]

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Hi James, I was not aware of this, and have not ever seen it, so thank you.
I personally do not like "smart" features like this. Allow me to be the smart user instead.

Cheers,

Brian D Armstrong PhD
Light Microscopy Core Facility

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Jonkman
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 2:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]





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Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).

Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  

Bug or Feature?
-----------------
So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?

Cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
   James Jonkman, Manager
   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
   University Health Network
   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
   www.aomf.ca

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This message and any attachments are intended solely for the individual or entity to which they are addressed. This communication may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure under applicable law (e.g., personal health information, research data, financial information). Because this e-mail has been sent without encryption, individuals other than the intended recipient may be able to view the information, forward it to others or tamper with the information without the knowledge or consent of the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or person responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you received the communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and deleting the message and any accompanying files from your system. If, due to the security risks, you do not wish to receive further communications via e-mail, please reply to this message and inform the sender that you do not wish to receive further e-mail from the sender. (LCP301)
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[Christopher Yip]

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Agreed - hidden, behind the scenes manipulation is a bug …


Christopher Yip PhD, P.Eng,

Associate Vice President - International Partnerships

Professor
Institute of Biomaterials and Biomedical Engineering
Department of Chemical Engineering and Applied Chemistry
Department of Biochemistry
The Terrence Donnelly Centre for Cellular and Biomolecular Research
University of Toronto
404 - 160 College St
Toronto, Ontario, CANADA M5S 3E1
[phone] (office)
[phone] (fax)
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On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:46 PM, Armstrong, Brian <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

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Hi James, I was not aware of this, and have not ever seen it, so thank you.
I personally do not like "smart" features like this. Allow me to be the smart user instead.

Cheers,

Brian D Armstrong PhD
Light Microscopy Core Facility

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Jonkman
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 2:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]





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To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).

Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.

Bug or Feature?
-----------------
So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?

Cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
  James Jonkman, Manager
  Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
  University Health Network
  MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
  Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
 [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
  www.aomf.ca

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This message and any attachments are intended solely for the individual or entity to which they are addressed. This communication may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure under applicable law (e.g., personal health information, research data, financial information). Because this e-mail has been sent without encryption, individuals other than the intended recipient may be able to view the information, forward it to others or tamper with the information without the knowledge or consent of the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or person responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you received the communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and deleting the message and any accompanying files from your system. If, due to the security risks, you do not wish to receive further communications via e-mail, please reply to this message and inform the sender that you do not wish to receive further e-mail from the sender. (LCP301)
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[Cammer, Michael]

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Do they open an old image and hit Reuse button?

Similar problem, people set Skip Lines feature to scan fast and forget to set it back to 1 before taking pictures.

Another HUGE problem is people setting the offset to a negative number.  I wish the Offset and Digital Gain sliders were hidden.  Buried deep.

Also, we disabled the objectives from being reused when people click the Reuse button.

Most likely they clicked bidirectional button and don’t remember doing it.

Over the years I have found that expert users have clicked on things I never thought to and have shown me cool tricks and at the opposite end users click and slide and present all sorts of images they call data.  Unfortunately, the distribution skews towards the lower end.

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016
[hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ 
Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 5:47 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning



Hi James, I was not aware of this, and have not ever seen it, so thank you.

I personally do not like "smart" features like this. Allow me to be the smart user instead.



Cheers,



Brian D Armstrong PhD

Light Microscopy Core Facility



-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Jonkman

Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 2:03 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning


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Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).



Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  



Bug or Feature?

-----------------

So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?



Cheers,

James



-----------------------------------------------

   James Jonkman, Manager

   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)

   University Health Network

   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305

   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7

  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  

   www.aomf.ca



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[Jacqueline Ross]

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Hi James,

When I  teach people, I always have these "features" visible, i.e. Show All, as I think it's important that people have access to features that might be useful and also understand how the system works. In addition, if these features aren't visible, you also miss out on other things you might want to use.

We have an LSM 710 and use bidirectional scanning frequently but not at high speed unless it's for live imaging of fast events. We often have to do very large z stacks and bidirectional saves time. We always check that the correction is working properly by acquiring a single scan before going ahead and if imaging punctate structures, we stick to unidirectional. Our system has the online scanning calibration active and it does work very well. I have never had to manually do any correction so we don't touch the X Y correction and Auto button. I do adjust it when I am teaching people to demonstrate it so that they know how it looks when things go wrong and also understand better.

Zeiss confocal software tends to have features to "help" you. The main one I notice is that if you select a larger image size, the scan speed automatically changes to a slower speed and conversely when you choose a smaller image, the speed goes up. My assumption is that because you are acquiring a larger image, you should go slower because you obviously want a good quality image and we know slower speed (without considering photobleaching) will provide this. However, we often over-ride this and our users know when they do this, what the compromises might be. We would do a comparison before doing the z stack, e.g. one image with scan speed 7 and another one with scan speed 6 with/without averaging. We also adjust averaging so might go a bit faster but increase averaging.

This is the case not just in ZEN but also with the older systems running LSM 5. This also happens when you are using a zoom, the speed (frequency of the mirrors) increases and fortunately it's easy to detect as the high pitch is a real giveaway. I assume that this feature is because when you are using a zoom, the risk of photobleaching is higher so you should go faster when setting up to minimise that issue. However, when we acquire our images, we almost always go slower, e.g. not 10, 11, 12, 13!

In my opinion, as long as all users know about this and understand when to use it, it is still a feature!

Cheers,

Jacqui



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Jonkman
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 9:03 a.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
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Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).

Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  

Bug or Feature?
-----------------
So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?

Cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
   James Jonkman, Manager
   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
   University Health Network
   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
   www.aomf.ca

[Craig Brideau]

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I design my own software to only let my users change one thing at a time.
@;-)
Craig

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:02 PM Jacqueline Ross <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi James,
>
> When I  teach people, I always have these "features" visible, i.e. Show
> All, as I think it's important that people have access to features that
> might be useful and also understand how the system works. In addition, if
> these features aren't visible, you also miss out on other things you might
> want to use.
>
> We have an LSM 710 and use bidirectional scanning frequently but not at
> high speed unless it's for live imaging of fast events. We often have to do
> very large z stacks and bidirectional saves time. We always check that the
> correction is working properly by acquiring a single scan before going
> ahead and if imaging punctate structures, we stick to unidirectional. Our
> system has the online scanning calibration active and it does work very
> well. I have never had to manually do any correction so we don't touch the
> X Y correction and Auto button. I do adjust it when I am teaching people to
> demonstrate it so that they know how it looks when things go wrong and also
> understand better.
>
> Zeiss confocal software tends to have features to "help" you. The main one
> I notice is that if you select a larger image size, the scan speed
> automatically changes to a slower speed and conversely when you choose a
> smaller image, the speed goes up. My assumption is that because you are
> acquiring a larger image, you should go slower because you obviously want a
> good quality image and we know slower speed (without considering
> photobleaching) will provide this. However, we often over-ride this and our
> users know when they do this, what the compromises might be. We would do a
> comparison before doing the z stack, e.g. one image with scan speed 7 and
> another one with scan speed 6 with/without averaging. We also adjust
> averaging so might go a bit faster but increase averaging.
>
> This is the case not just in ZEN but also with the older systems running
> LSM 5. This also happens when you are using a zoom, the speed (frequency of
> the mirrors) increases and fortunately it's easy to detect as the high
> pitch is a real giveaway. I assume that this feature is because when you
> are using a zoom, the risk of photobleaching is higher so you should go
> faster when setting up to minimise that issue. However, when we acquire our
> images, we almost always go slower, e.g. not 10, 11, 12, 13!
>
> In my opinion, as long as all users know about this and understand when to
> use it, it is still a feature!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jacqui
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
> Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 9:03 a.m.
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over
> the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less
> experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and
> we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional
> scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they
> didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on
> bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the
> x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the
> default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>
> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally
> turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that
> you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check
> the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is
> unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my
> surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is
> still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an
> opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn
> on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT
> automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out
> how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All
> selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.
>
> Bug or Feature?
> -----------------
> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you
> might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I
> reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told
> me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less
> experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum
> scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by
> automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this
> has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a
> decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the
> x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a
> terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And
> furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of
> acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not
> automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?
> Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who
> appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?
> Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>
> Cheers,
> James
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>    James Jonkman, Manager
>    Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>    University Health Network
>    MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>    Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>   [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
>    www.aomf.ca
>

[James Muller]

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I just tried this on our 880 and did not observe this can you please document all of the steps so I can try to reproduce this.

Thanks,

JM

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 8:25 PM, Craig Brideau <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I design my own software to only let my users change one thing at a time.
> @;-)
> Craig
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:02 PM Jacqueline Ross <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> When I  teach people, I always have these "features" visible, i.e. Show
>> All, as I think it's important that people have access to features that
>> might be useful and also understand how the system works. In addition, if
>> these features aren't visible, you also miss out on other things you might
>> want to use.
>>
>> We have an LSM 710 and use bidirectional scanning frequently but not at
>> high speed unless it's for live imaging of fast events. We often have to do
>> very large z stacks and bidirectional saves time. We always check that the
>> correction is working properly by acquiring a single scan before going
>> ahead and if imaging punctate structures, we stick to unidirectional. Our
>> system has the online scanning calibration active and it does work very
>> well. I have never had to manually do any correction so we don't touch the
>> X Y correction and Auto button. I do adjust it when I am teaching people to
>> demonstrate it so that they know how it looks when things go wrong and also
>> understand better.
>>
>> Zeiss confocal software tends to have features to "help" you. The main one
>> I notice is that if you select a larger image size, the scan speed
>> automatically changes to a slower speed and conversely when you choose a
>> smaller image, the speed goes up. My assumption is that because you are
>> acquiring a larger image, you should go slower because you obviously want a
>> good quality image and we know slower speed (without considering
>> photobleaching) will provide this. However, we often over-ride this and our
>> users know when they do this, what the compromises might be. We would do a
>> comparison before doing the z stack, e.g. one image with scan speed 7 and
>> another one with scan speed 6 with/without averaging. We also adjust
>> averaging so might go a bit faster but increase averaging.
>>
>> This is the case not just in ZEN but also with the older systems running
>> LSM 5. This also happens when you are using a zoom, the speed (frequency of
>> the mirrors) increases and fortunately it's easy to detect as the high
>> pitch is a real giveaway. I assume that this feature is because when you
>> are using a zoom, the risk of photobleaching is higher so you should go
>> faster when setting up to minimise that issue. However, when we acquire our
>> images, we almost always go slower, e.g. not 10, 11, 12, 13!
>>
>> In my opinion, as long as all users know about this and understand when to
>> use it, it is still a feature!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jacqui
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>> Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 9:03 a.m.
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over
>> the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less
>> experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and
>> we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional
>> scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they
>> didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on
>> bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the
>> x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the
>> default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>>
>> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally
>> turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that
>> you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check
>> the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is
>> unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my
>> surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is
>> still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an
>> opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn
>> on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT
>> automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out
>> how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All
>> selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.
>>
>> Bug or Feature?
>> -----------------
>> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you
>> might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I
>> reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told
>> me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less
>> experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum
>> scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by
>> automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this
>> has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a
>> decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the
>> x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a
>> terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And
>> furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of
>> acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not
>> automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?
>> Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who
>> appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?
>> Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> James
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>   James Jonkman, Manager
>>   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>>   University Health Network
>>   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>>   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>>  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
>>   www.aomf.ca
>>

[Martin Spitaler-2]

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*****

Hi James,

  thanks for pointing this out, I've just tested it on the 780, same problem, and for obvious technical reasons the same also happens when scanning at high speed and zooming out (which makes it even more confusing for inexperienced users).
  Producing a distorted image without giving the users any explanation or the chance to correct it is clearly a bug! Luckily, it seems they have fixed it for the 880, according to James Muller's reply. Zeiss programmers, can we please get a fix for the 780 as well?

Best regards,

Martin

________________________________________
Martin Spitaler, PhD
Head of the
Imaging Facility
Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry
Am Klopferspitz 18
82152 Martinsried
Germany
Tel: [phone]
E-mail: [hidden email]
Website: http://www.biochem.mpg.de/en/facilities/imaging 

[0000001ed7f52e4a-dmarc-request]

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*****

Good to know and thanks for reporting this, can you let us know the version of Zen please?

Definitely a bug!

 Best wishes

Andreas


Sent from my phone

> On 14 Sep 2018, at 09:36, Martin Spitaler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi James,
>
>  thanks for pointing this out, I've just tested it on the 780, same problem, and for obvious technical reasons the same also happens when scanning at high speed and zooming out (which makes it even more confusing for inexperienced users).
>  Producing a distorted image without giving the users any explanation or the chance to correct it is clearly a bug! Luckily, it seems they have fixed it for the 880, according to James Muller's reply. Zeiss programmers, can we please get a fix for the 780 as well?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Martin
>
> ________________________________________
> Martin Spitaler, PhD
> Head of the
> Imaging Facility
> Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry
> Am Klopferspitz 18
> 82152 Martinsried
> Germany
> Tel: [phone]
> E-mail: [hidden email]
> Website: http://www.biochem.mpg.de/en/facilities/imaging 

[James Jonkman-2]

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Apparently this happens in Zen Black, all versions since Zen 2009. We see it on our LSM880 as well.  But it should not happen in Zen Blue if you have an LSM800.  You can reproduce the problem as follows:

1. In the Acquisition Mode dialog box, select "Show All" for a minute.  Make sure Direction is set to single direction (not bi-directional) and make sure your Scan Speed is set to less than the maximum (say, speed of 7 for example).
2. Now in the Acquisition Mode, UNCHECK THE "SHOW ALL" button.  Now you can't see the bi-directional setting, right?  You can't tell whether it is on or off, but we assume it is still off.  Should be a safe assumption.
3. Now increase the scan speed to the Max setting.  Note the scan time is suddenly half as much as you would suspect (compared to the second fastest scan speed) because, without your knowledge or permission it has turned on bi-directional scanning!  
4. Turn on the Show All again and you'll see that it's on now.  But funnily enough, if you increase the scan speed to maximum when Show All is already selected (so that you can keep an eye on the bi-directional setting) then it doesn't happen.  It's only when you're not looking that the scan speed can turn the bi-directional setting on or off on you.  


James

[Zdenek Svindrych-2]

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Hi ZENers,
my favorite "feature" is this one: if you try to save your images and the
disk is full, ZEN only saves few bytes and no actual image data. No error
message. Everything's lost. But users only figure it out the next day when
they want to analyze the images... That was back with ZEN2012 or so, haven't
tested it with ZEN 2.
Btw, totally agree with Michael, adjusting Offset is bad! And I can't
imagine situation where Digital Gain would be needed.

Best, zdenek

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 13. 9. 2018 18:05:48
Předmět: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional
scanning
"*****
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Do they open an old image and hit Reuse button?

Similar problem, people set Skip Lines feature to scan fast and forget to
set it back to 1 before taking pictures.

Another HUGE problem is people setting the offset to a negative number. I
wish the Offset and Digital Gain sliders were hidden. Buried deep.

Also, we disabled the objectives from being reused when people click the
Reuse button.

Most likely they clicked bidirectional button and don’t remember doing it.

Over the years I have found that expert users have clicked on things I never
thought to and have shown me cool tricks and at the opposite end users click
and slide and present all sorts of images they call data. Unfortunately, the
distribution skews towards the lower end.

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
10016
[hidden email] http://nyulmc.org/micros http://microscopynotes.
com/
Voice direct only, no text or messages: 1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 5:47 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional
scanning



Hi James, I was not aware of this, and have not ever seen it, so thank you.

I personally do not like "smart" features like this. Allow me to be the
smart user instead.



Cheers,



Brian D Armstrong PhD

Light Microscopy Core Facility



-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of James Jonkman

Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 2:03 PM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning


*****

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Hi, all. This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users. Over the
last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced
users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would
quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.
We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it
on, but there it was. They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional
scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align
adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0
gives terrible results).



Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally
turned on. It's really quite bizarre! As Zen users know, features that you
don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the
"Show All" button for that dialog box. In Zen Black, when Show All is
unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my
surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on! The setting is
still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an
opportunity to adjust the x-correction. The strangest part is, if you turn
on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT
automatically change. I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out
how it was getting accidentally turned on: I usually have Show All selected
for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.



Bug or Feature?

-----------------

So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you
might have an opinion!). Is this a bug, or is this a feature? When I
reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told
me this was not a bug, but rather a feature. When a presumably less
experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum
scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by
automatically turning on bi-directional scanning. But on our LSM700, this
has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a
decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x
-corr as this setting isn't visible. I would further argue that it is a
terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back. And
furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of
acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically? Why not
automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?
Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who
appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it. What do you guys think?
Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?



Cheers,

James



-----------------------------------------------

James Jonkman, Manager

Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)

University Health Network

MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305

Toronto, ON, CANADA M5G 1L7

[hidden email] Tel: [phone]

www.aomf.ca



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[lgelman]

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Hi James,
Just saw you mail now...
We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
Very best regards,
Laurent.


Laurent Gelman
Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
Head Light Microscopy
Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
Maulbeerstrasse 66
4058 basel
Switzerland
[phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
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Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).

Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  

Bug or Feature?
-----------------
So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?

Cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
   James Jonkman, Manager
   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
   University Health Network
   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
   www.aomf.ca

[Cammer, Michael]

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*****

We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.

I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.

Cheers-

Michael Cammer


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning



Hi James,

Just saw you mail now...

We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.

Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.

I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...

Very best regards,

Laurent.





Laurent Gelman

Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy

Head Light Microscopy

Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research

Maulbeerstrasse 66

4058 basel

Switzerland

[phone]







-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman

Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning



*****

To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:

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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.

*****



Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).



Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  



Bug or Feature?

-----------------

So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?



Cheers,

James



-----------------------------------------------

   James Jonkman, Manager

   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)

   University Health Network

   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305

   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7

  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  

   www.aomf.ca


------------------------------------------------------------
This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
=================================

[Armstrong, Brian]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Hello Laurent, (and Carl Zeiss Microimaging) I also do NOT like the pseudo-intelligent take-over of imaging parameters.

Cheers,

Brian Armstrong PhD
Associate Research Professor
Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
Director, Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:17 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]





*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi James,
Just saw you mail now...
We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
Very best regards,
Laurent.


Laurent Gelman
Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy Head Light Microscopy Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research Maulbeerstrasse 66
4058 basel
Switzerland
[phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).

Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  

Bug or Feature?
-----------------
So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?

Cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
   James Jonkman, Manager
   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
   University Health Network
   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
   www.aomf.ca

------------------------------------------------------------
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[Montero Llopis, Paula De La Milagrosa]

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Michael,

I agree with you the need to train users to always check the settings before acquiring the experiment and to help them understand what each setting they use in the software does. However, I think the reason the Live button in ZEN gives "fast presets" is so that you can focus on your sample (to set up a Z stack, for example) quickly and while minimizing photobleaching. Otherwise, if you have optimized your acquisition to reduce scan speed, decrease pixel size and or do averaging, it would take forever to focus.

 I would name it differently for sure, so that it is clear to the user of what is happening. If you acquire the experiment, click on SNAP or use the "Continuous" button, the software will respect the settings you optimized for.


Thank you,

Paula Montero Llopis


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2018, at 13:17, Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.
>
> I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
>
>
> Hi James,
>
> Just saw you mail now...
>
> We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
>
> Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
>
> I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Laurent.
>
>
>
>
>
> Laurent Gelman
>
> Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
>
> Head Light Microscopy
>
> Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
>
> Maulbeerstrasse 66
>
> 4058 basel
>
> Switzerland
>
> [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=kgugkYKrkR1--d1voNc8tY1FdSWcUgV5HcwvWjGnT-E&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>
>
>
> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  
>
>
>
> Bug or Feature?
>
> -----------------
>
> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>   James Jonkman, Manager
>
>   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>
>   University Health Network
>
>   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>
>   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>
>  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
>
>   www.aomf.ca
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
>

[Cammer, Michael]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Sorry if that wasn't clear.  
Live is always 512x512 fast speed.  This is great.  Having a different preview mode than the capture mode is ideal (and something missing from other confocal software)
The problem is that the capture mode settings often change without warning, so they need to be checked constantly.
Cheers-
Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016
[hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ 
Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Montero Llopis, Paula De La Milagrosa
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Michael,

I agree with you the need to train users to always check the settings before acquiring the experiment and to help them understand what each setting they use in the software does. However, I think the reason the Live button in ZEN gives "fast presets" is so that you can focus on your sample (to set up a Z stack, for example) quickly and while minimizing photobleaching. Otherwise, if you have optimized your acquisition to reduce scan speed, decrease pixel size and or do averaging, it would take forever to focus.

 I would name it differently for sure, so that it is clear to the user of what is happening. If you acquire the experiment, click on SNAP or use the "Continuous" button, the software will respect the settings you optimized for.


Thank you,

Paula Montero Llopis


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2018, at 13:17, Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.
>
> I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
>
>
> Hi James,
>
> Just saw you mail now...
>
> We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
>
> Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
>
> I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Laurent.
>
>
>
>
>
> Laurent Gelman
>
> Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
>
> Head Light Microscopy
>
> Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
>
> Maulbeerstrasse 66
>
> 4058 basel
>
> Switzerland
>
> [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=kgugkYKrkR1--d1voNc8tY1FdSWcUgV5HcwvWjGnT-E&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>
>
>
> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.  
>
>
>
> Bug or Feature?
>
> -----------------
>
> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>   James Jonkman, Manager
>
>   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>
>   University Health Network
>
>   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>
>   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>
>  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
>
>   www.aomf.ca
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
>

------------------------------------------------------------
This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
=================================

[Martin Koster]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I vote for Bug.
(and not listening to users).
Indeed a customizable workspace is the way to go.
Settings should never change without notice, and hiding things that do matter is not smart at all.

We recently switched from a Leica (LAS) to Zeiss (ZEN) system.
If I was only able to match and mix the good features of both systems (including software) and leave out the odd and bad things then ... wow

E.g ZEN does not give any warning at all if you switch from oil to air. Now this is where software could act smart and give you a warning ahead (like Leica does)

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2018 20:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Live is always 512x512 fast speed.  This is great.  Having a different preview mode than the capture mode is ideal (and something missing from other confocal software) The problem is that the capture mode settings often change without warning, so they need to be checked constantly.
Cheers-
Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016 [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Montero Llopis, Paula De La Milagrosa
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Michael,

I agree with you the need to train users to always check the settings before acquiring the experiment and to help them understand what each setting they use in the software does. However, I think the reason the Live button in ZEN gives "fast presets" is so that you can focus on your sample (to set up a Z stack, for example) quickly and while minimizing photobleaching. Otherwise, if you have optimized your acquisition to reduce scan speed, decrease pixel size and or do averaging, it would take forever to focus.

 I would name it differently for sure, so that it is clear to the user of what is happening. If you acquire the experiment, click on SNAP or use the "Continuous" button, the software will respect the settings you optimized for.


Thank you,

Paula Montero Llopis


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 11, 2018, at 13:17, Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.
>
> I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
>
>
> Hi James,
>
> Just saw you mail now...
>
> We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
>
> Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
>
> I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
>
> Very best regards,
>
> Laurent.
>
>
>
>
>
> Laurent Gelman
>
> Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
>
> Head Light Microscopy
>
> Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
>
> Maulbeerstrasse 66
>
> 4058 basel
>
> Switzerland
>
> [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=kgugkYKrkR1--d1voNc8tY1FdSWcUgV5HcwvWjGnT-E&e=
>
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>
>
>
> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.
>
>
>
> Bug or Feature?
>
> -----------------
>
> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> James
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>   James Jonkman, Manager
>
>   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>
>   University Health Network
>
>   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>
>   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>
>  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
>
>   www.aomf.ca
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
>

------------------------------------------------------------
This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
=================================
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[0000001ed7f52e4a-dmarc-request]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

We could specify a standard for user interfaces, file formats etc, something which makes sense and is supported by microscopy societies, then put this as a requirement when we purchase a new microscope. Obviously this standard has to be specified carefully, otherwise things will get worse and But it might also prevent future innovation.

Regarding changing the objective, i find it better on our Zeiss microscopes that the objective is changed first but kept in load position until the user confirms the change (on the TFT display). On the Leica it does not change, but waits for confirmation (in the software), so that inexperienced users have put oil on the air objectives, the new 20x air looks very similar to a 40x oil and the turret moves very fast and without much noise. There is also no distinction between water and oil objectives on the touch screen, it just says immersion.

Best wishes

Andreas

Sent from my phone

> On 12 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Koster, Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I vote for Bug.
> (and not listening to users).
> Indeed a customizable workspace is the way to go.
> Settings should never change without notice, and hiding things that do matter is not smart at all.
>
> We recently switched from a Leica (LAS) to Zeiss (ZEN) system.
> If I was only able to match and mix the good features of both systems (including software) and leave out the odd and bad things then ... wow
>
> E.g ZEN does not give any warning at all if you switch from oil to air. Now this is where software could act smart and give you a warning ahead (like Leica does)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
> Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2018 20:38
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Sorry if that wasn't clear.
> Live is always 512x512 fast speed.  This is great.  Having a different preview mode than the capture mode is ideal (and something missing from other confocal software) The problem is that the capture mode settings often change without warning, so they need to be checked constantly.
> Cheers-
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016 [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Montero Llopis, Paula De La Milagrosa
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:33 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I agree with you the need to train users to always check the settings before acquiring the experiment and to help them understand what each setting they use in the software does. However, I think the reason the Live button in ZEN gives "fast presets" is so that you can focus on your sample (to set up a Z stack, for example) quickly and while minimizing photobleaching. Otherwise, if you have optimized your acquisition to reduce scan speed, decrease pixel size and or do averaging, it would take forever to focus.
>
> I would name it differently for sure, so that it is clear to the user of what is happening. If you acquire the experiment, click on SNAP or use the "Continuous" button, the software will respect the settings you optimized for.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paula Montero Llopis
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 11, 2018, at 13:17, Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.
>>
>> I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.
>>
>> Cheers-
>>
>> Michael Cammer
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Just saw you mail now...
>>
>> We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
>>
>> Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
>>
>> I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
>>
>> Very best regards,
>>
>> Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Laurent Gelman
>>
>> Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
>>
>> Head Light Microscopy
>>
>> Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
>>
>> Maulbeerstrasse 66
>>
>> 4058 basel
>>
>> Switzerland
>>
>> [phone]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
>>
>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>>
>>
>> *****
>>
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=kgugkYKrkR1--d1voNc8tY1FdSWcUgV5HcwvWjGnT-E&e=
>>
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.
>>
>> *****
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>>
>>
>>
>> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bug or Feature?
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>
>>  James Jonkman, Manager
>>
>>  Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>>
>>  University Health Network
>>
>>  MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>>
>>  Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>>
>> [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
>>
>>  www.aomf.ca
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
>> =================================
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
> IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and privileged. It is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive the information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person.

[Moulding, Dale]

*****
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Hi Martin,

The zeiss immersion warning is hidden away in the TFT control. Under the settings tab.
Settings / extras / oil stop.
Took me a while to find on a new system which at install had this feature disabled. Might be in the MTB tool also.

Cheers

Dale

Dale Moulding PhD FRMS
ICH Light Microscopy Facility
UCL Great Ormond Street lnstitute of Child Health
30 Guilford Street
London WC1N 1EH
Mob: [phone]
Tel: [phone]
Please acknowledge use of the BRC funded facility in all publications:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/ich/core-scientific-facilities-centres/confocal-microscopy

________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Andreas Bruckbauer <[hidden email]>
Sent: 12 October 2018 07:55:21
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

We could specify a standard for user interfaces, file formats etc, something which makes sense and is supported by microscopy societies, then put this as a requirement when we purchase a new microscope. Obviously this standard has to be specified carefully, otherwise things will get worse and But it might also prevent future innovation.

Regarding changing the objective, i find it better on our Zeiss microscopes that the objective is changed first but kept in load position until the user confirms the change (on the TFT display). On the Leica it does not change, but waits for confirmation (in the software), so that inexperienced users have put oil on the air objectives, the new 20x air looks very similar to a 40x oil and the turret moves very fast and without much noise. There is also no distinction between water and oil objectives on the touch screen, it just says immersion.

Best wishes

Andreas

Sent from my phone

> On 12 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Koster, Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I vote for Bug.
> (and not listening to users).
> Indeed a customizable workspace is the way to go.
> Settings should never change without notice, and hiding things that do matter is not smart at all.
>
> We recently switched from a Leica (LAS) to Zeiss (ZEN) system.
> If I was only able to match and mix the good features of both systems (including software) and leave out the odd and bad things then ... wow
>
> E.g ZEN does not give any warning at all if you switch from oil to air. Now this is where software could act smart and give you a warning ahead (like Leica does)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
> Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2018 20:38
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Sorry if that wasn't clear.
> Live is always 512x512 fast speed.  This is great.  Having a different preview mode than the capture mode is ideal (and something missing from other confocal software) The problem is that the capture mode settings often change without warning, so they need to be checked constantly.
> Cheers-
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016 [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Montero Llopis, Paula De La Milagrosa
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:33 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I agree with you the need to train users to always check the settings before acquiring the experiment and to help them understand what each setting they use in the software does. However, I think the reason the Live button in ZEN gives "fast presets" is so that you can focus on your sample (to set up a Z stack, for example) quickly and while minimizing photobleaching. Otherwise, if you have optimized your acquisition to reduce scan speed, decrease pixel size and or do averaging, it would take forever to focus.
>
> I would name it differently for sure, so that it is clear to the user of what is happening. If you acquire the experiment, click on SNAP or use the "Continuous" button, the software will respect the settings you optimized for.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paula Montero Llopis
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 11, 2018, at 13:17, Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.
>>
>> I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.
>>
>> Cheers-
>>
>> Michael Cammer
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Just saw you mail now...
>>
>> We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
>>
>> Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
>>
>> I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
>>
>> Very best regards,
>>
>> Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Laurent Gelman
>>
>> Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
>>
>> Head Light Microscopy
>>
>> Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
>>
>> Maulbeerstrasse 66
>>
>> 4058 basel
>>
>> Switzerland
>>
>> [phone]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
>>
>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>>
>>
>> *****
>>
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=kgugkYKrkR1--d1voNc8tY1FdSWcUgV5HcwvWjGnT-E&e=
>>
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.
>>
>> *****
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>>
>>
>>
>> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bug or Feature?
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>
>>  James Jonkman, Manager
>>
>>  Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>>
>>  University Health Network
>>
>>  MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>>
>>  Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>>
>> [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
>>
>>  www.aomf.ca<http://www.aomf.ca>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
>> =================================
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is proprietary, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender by return email and delete the original message. Please note, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The organization accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> =================================
> IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential and privileged. It is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive the information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person.

[James Jonkman-2]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this!  We could certainly debate whether bi-directional scanning is good or not, and how well it is implemented on various confocals (different vendors, or different models); but my point was more along the lines of these latest replies - that settings should not be changed without the knowledge or will or the user.  Not even if it was intended for good instead of evil!  This should be a standard design criterion.  

cheers,
James

-----------------------------------------------
   James Jonkman, Manager
   Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
   University Health Network
   MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
   Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
  [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]  
   www.aomf.ca



*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

We could specify a standard for user interfaces, file formats etc, something which makes sense and is supported by microscopy societies, then put this as a requirement when we purchase a new microscope. Obviously this standard has to be specified carefully, otherwise things will get worse and But it might also prevent future innovation.

Regarding changing the objective, i find it better on our Zeiss microscopes that the objective is changed first but kept in load position until the user confirms the change (on the TFT display). On the Leica it does not change, but waits for confirmation (in the software), so that inexperienced users have put oil on the air objectives, the new 20x air looks very similar to a 40x oil and the turret moves very fast and without much noise. There is also no distinction between water and oil objectives on the touch screen, it just says immersion.

Best wishes

Andreas

Sent from my phone

> On 12 Oct 2018, at 06:47, Koster, Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I vote for Bug.
> (and not listening to users).
> Indeed a customizable workspace is the way to go.
> Settings should never change without notice, and hiding things that do matter is not smart at all.
>
> We recently switched from a Leica (LAS) to Zeiss (ZEN) system.
> If I was only able to match and mix the good features of both systems (including software) and leave out the odd and bad things then ... wow
>
> E.g ZEN does not give any warning at all if you switch from oil to air. Now this is where software could act smart and give you a warning ahead (like Leica does)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
> Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2018 20:38
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Sorry if that wasn't clear.
> Live is always 512x512 fast speed.  This is great.  Having a different preview mode than the capture mode is ideal (and something missing from other confocal software) The problem is that the capture mode settings often change without warning, so they need to be checked constantly.
> Cheers-
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016 [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Montero Llopis, Paula De La Milagrosa
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:33 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I agree with you the need to train users to always check the settings before acquiring the experiment and to help them understand what each setting they use in the software does. However, I think the reason the Live button in ZEN gives "fast presets" is so that you can focus on your sample (to set up a Z stack, for example) quickly and while minimizing photobleaching. Otherwise, if you have optimized your acquisition to reduce scan speed, decrease pixel size and or do averaging, it would take forever to focus.
>
> I would name it differently for sure, so that it is clear to the user of what is happening. If you acquire the experiment, click on SNAP or use the "Continuous" button, the software will respect the settings you optimized for.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Paula Montero Llopis
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 11, 2018, at 13:17, Cammer, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=Tv30RBc5O7gaNqCOQXZ2hFCXx2vf10laKQaO7fWtzbA&e=
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFAg&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=vfUn-WSoz3z11I1Wutm3wYYMExfQInQ6nJuvEPYzlnE&m=jVlAV_qk36dXd72pU-S7HOlwigWVRgpA-DdzaByVw5o&s=FtOUDQ3K34VapZo9HNFuwEv4i7vrobUgtQuriSPQp5c&e= and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> We find that the scan speed often resets to the fastest speed possible, so we train users to always check the scan speed before clicking Scan or Start Experiment.
>>
>> I don't understand why Live scanning or turning on/off tracks have to reset the settings used for Continuous, Snap, and Experiment, but this is how the software operates.
>>
>> Cheers-
>>
>> Michael Cammer
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gelman, Laurent
>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:17 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Just saw you mail now...
>>
>> We noticed this also a long time ago, when users were clicking the "Re-use" button. It is a very bad feature, one of several bad features Zeiss has implemented to make systems (pseudo-)"intelligent and user friendly". Just as annoying as the scan speed being changed automatically with pixel size: showing our users the impact of pixel size on signal and noise is not straightforward anymore.
>>
>> Also, since the beginning, we always go for "Show All", just like we were always using "expert mode" in the old software, since we otherwise always miss something. I think here the possibility to customized the workspace is the right way to go, not to try to (over-)simplify the menus in a single manner.
>>
>> I told all this already many times to Zeiss, but always got the answer "some users want that". I just wonder, who these users are. I personally never met any of them...
>>
>> Very best regards,
>>
>> Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Laurent Gelman
>>
>> Facility for Advanced Imaging and Microscopy
>>
>> Head Light Microscopy
>>
>> Friedrich Miescher Institute for Biomedical Research
>>
>> Maulbeerstrasse 66
>>
>> 4058 basel
>>
>> Switzerland
>>
>> [phone]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of James Jonkman
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 23:03
>>
>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>> Subject: Bug or Feature? Zen automatically turns on bi-directional scanning
>>
>>
>>
>> *****
>>
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=kgugkYKrkR1--d1voNc8tY1FdSWcUgV5HcwvWjGnT-E&e=
>>
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=0vsep33OWiIQUFKKxnJgTZzQTlu1A2chaKiKQvPmyLw&s=LmhcU-ffs2XZUvhoRj0elP_7vqwvZVlSmvn4s3GcsRw&e= and include the link in your posting.
>>
>> *****
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, all.  This is a question for my fellow Zeiss Zen (black) users.  Over the last few years we have occasionally noticed some of our less experienced users having jagged features line-by-line in their images, and we would quickly determine that they had somehow turned on bi-directional scanning.  We didn't show them this feature, and they insisted that they didn't turn it on, but there it was.  They had inadvertently turned on bi-directional scanning, and of course then they hadn't adjusted the x-correction to align adjacent rows (and on our LSM700 in particular, the default correction of 0 gives terrible results).
>>
>>
>>
>> Recently, I discovered how bi-directional scanning is getting accidentally turned on.  It's really quite bizarre!  As Zen users know, features that you don't use often (including bi-directional) are hidden until you check the "Show All" button for that dialog box.  In Zen Black, when Show All is unchecked, if you move the scan speed to the maximum setting, much to my surprise bi-directional scanning automatically turns on!  The setting is still hidden, so you don't know that it has done this and you don't have an opportunity to adjust the x-correction.  The strangest part is, if you turn on Show All to reveal these buttons, then the bi-directional does NOT automatically change.  I guess this is why it took me so long to figure out how it was getting accidentally turned on:  I usually have Show All selected for most of the dialog boxes when I am running it myself.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bug or Feature?
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> So here is my question to the confocal community (Zeiss user or not, you might have an opinion!).  Is this a bug, or is this a feature?  When I reported what I thought was a bug to Zeiss Service, they came back and told me this was not a bug, but rather a feature.  When a presumably less experienced user (who will have Show All unchecked) moves to the maximum scan speed, Zeiss does them a favour and gives them a speed boost by automatically turning on bi-directional scanning.  But on our LSM700, this has always resulted in jagged features - it has never once ever produced a decent image since the users don't even have the opportunity to adjust the x-corr as this setting isn't visible.  I would further argue that it is a terrible idea to mess with parameters behind the user's back.  And furthermore, if they wanted to automatically play with the speed of acquisition, why stop at turning on bi-directional automatically?  Why not automatically reduce the line averaging if it was being used for example?  Zeiss is nevertheless reluctant to fix this, as they say that users who appreciate this so-called "feature" will miss it.  What do you guys think?  Who votes for Bug and who votes for Feature?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>
>>  James Jonkman, Manager
>>
>>  Advanced Optical Microscopy Facility (AOMF)
>>
>>  University Health Network
>>
>>  MaRS, PMCRT tower, 101 College St., Room 15-305
>>
>>  Toronto, ON, CANADA    M5G 1L7
>>
>> [hidden email]  Tel: [phone]
>>
>>  www.aomf.ca
>>