Core Facility Training Fees

[obsydion]

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Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

[Gary Laevsky]

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Hi Kelvin,

We don’t charge to train. We also do not differentiate between assisted/unassisted rates.

Best,

Gary

> On Aug 20, 2018, at 7:59 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>
> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
> Kind regards,
> Kelvin

[Chew, Teng-Leong]

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Dear Kelvin,

May I offer a different perspective  -  you don’t argue about this from a philosophical standpoint. Philosophical argument may align well with the culture of one institution but go against it in some other universities. In your case, they clearly are not buying your argument.

You approach this from a budgetary standpoint, something your administrative level people would understand. If they impose (for e.g.) 75% recharge recovery for your operational cost, then you have to find ways to recover that 75%, staff salary and fringe included. This will stop their phony argument on its track.

If you have to find ways to recover your maintenance contracts as a cost item, you likewise need to recover salary as another cost item. It is that simple. Work it into your financial plan as projected income.

So, yes, it IS the monetary argument, after all. If your institutional culture focuses on the monetary angle rather than the real scientific benefits, you beat them at their game, using their rules.

BTW, most core facilities charges training fees. The NIH shared instrumentation grant review committee will evaluate this also. Administrative plan in an S10 grant that do not include training fees usually don’t fare very well unless the institution shows that it subsidizes it fully. So not charging training fees is not the norm, but few of the exceptions.


Hope this helps,
Leong

Director, Advanced Imaging Center
HHMI Janelia Research Campus
Ashburn, VA 20147


On 8/20/18, 7:59 PM, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Kelvin Poon" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    *****
    To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
    http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
    Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
    *****
   
    Hi all,
   
    This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
    We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
   
    In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
   
    I look forward to your replies!
   
    Kind regards,
    Kelvin
   

[Jason Kirk]

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Hi Kelvin,

The way we handle situations like this is simple.  Our core charges $35/hr. for independent use after a $200 training fee.  If a PI has an issue with training charges we offer assisted imaging rates at $60/hr without the training fee.  If they are going to be using the instrument for any serious amount of time this always ends up being a short conversation.  More often than not it is fairly easy to find common ground.

Now matter how sophisticated your expertise or detailed your training program is - someone will always find it too expensive.  PIs aren’t often aware of the cost of running a core.  If cores were ever run like actual businesses (even break even ones as the NIH commands), most would be charging hundreds of dollars per hour just to make up for the staffing cost, equipment depreciation, service contracts costs, emergency expenditures, etc. that equipment heavy cores face on an annual basis.

At the end of the day the onus really should be on your institution to mitigate these issues.  Did you as a core facility manager decide what to charge?  No - your institution like evaluated your chargeback rates before allowing you to do business.  They must have justified them somehow - and they should explain this to researchers that have an issue.  

Good luck!

-Jason

—————————————
Jason M. Kirk
Technical Director
Optical Imaging & Vital Microscopy Core (OiVM) <https://www.bcm.edu/research/advanced-technology-core-labs/lab-listing/optical-imaging-and-vital-microscopy-core>
Baylor College of Medicine

> On Aug 20, 2018, at 6:59 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>
> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
> Kind regards,
> Kelvin

[Jacqueline Ross]

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Hi Kelvin,

We do not charge separately for training for staff/students from within our institution but charge for the equipment time only. So, during the training sessions, they are charged for equipment time as well as when they subsequently work independently. As more complex systems require more training time, they will pay more for learning to use a confocal compared to a basic light microscope but that is to be expected.  The hourly charge for a confocal is also higher. I think if we charged separately for training time, people might resist that and we do not want users training other people in their group. We want every user to get the same level of training from our experts. No one gets access to any equipment in our facility without having had training from one of our staff. I also think that our researchers appreciate the expertise and support that we offer.

Training is carried out on a one-to-one basis even for the most basic light microscope. Generally, for a confocal microscope, there will be 2 training sessions required. The first session is usually 2.5 hours and covers the hardware and theory. We only train users on their own samples, i.e. we do not use standard samples. By doing this, we can also address any issues with the tissue/cells/staining at the same time and provide advice on how to improve things. During the first session, we might only look at one or two samples as the main purpose is explaining how the system works and how to acquire a good quality image. So, we do most of the talking and run the system. Hopefully, they make their own notes during the session and I encourage them to do this. We also send out any instruction files we have AFTER that first session. We don't send it beforehand otherwise you risk the situation where they think they already know everything.

The second session is the hands-on one for the user. At this session, they run the system from the start with input from us if they are having any difficulties or forget what to do, i.e. we fill in the gaps! At that session, we also concentrate on exactly what they need to do for their particular sample. If they seem to be using the system well during this session, I will leave them to work independently for a while and then check back on them. They can always call me if they experience any issues. All going well, they will be given permission to book the system. If it isn't going well, they will have a 3rd session (or more!) to demonstrate their competence before being able to book the machine.

For us, the most important aspect of training is to build a strong and supportive relationship with the user.  We want them to feel comfortable and confident using the system as well as feeling free to call us if they have any issues, including anything that might result in damage to the system. We also try to make sure that they have a good understanding of how the system actually works, sometimes this takes a while.. We don't want people to stick like glue to the same settings every time because they don't really know what they are doing. Plus we want people to report issues with the system to us directly so that we can sort out any problems including calling the service engineer if need be.

Kind regards,

Jacqui

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon
Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2018 12:00 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Core Facility Training Fees

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*****

Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

[Jacqueline Ross]

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Hi Kelvin,

I would argue it from a research support point of view rather than monetary. Universities are research-led and their status depends on high quality research being undertaken, resulting in high level publications.

We do not charge separately for training for staff/students from within our institution but charge for the equipment time only. So, during the training sessions, they are charged for equipment time as well as when they subsequently work independently. As more complex systems require more training time, they will pay more for learning to use a confocal compared to a basic light microscope but that is to be expected.  The hourly charge for a confocal is also higher. I think if we charged separately for training time, people might resist that and we do not want users training other people in their group. We want every user to get the same level of training from our experts. No one gets access to any equipment in our facility without having had training from one of our staff. I also think that our researchers appreciate the expertise and support that we offer.

Training is carried out on a one-to-one basis even for the most basic light microscope. Generally, for a confocal microscope, there will be 2 training sessions required. The first session is usually 2.5 hours and covers the hardware and theory. We only train users on their own samples, i.e. we do not use standard samples. By doing this, we can also address any issues with the tissue/cells/staining at the same time and provide advice on how to improve things. During the first session, we might only look at one or two samples as the main purpose is explaining how the system works and how to acquire a good quality image. So, we do most of the talking and run the system. Hopefully, they make their own notes during the session and I encourage them to do this. We also send out any instruction files we have AFTER that first session. We don't send it beforehand otherwise you risk the situation where they think they already know everything.

The second session is the hands-on one for the user. At this session, they run the system from the start with input from us if they are having any difficulties or forget what to do, i.e. we fill in the gaps! At that session, we also concentrate on exactly what they need to do for their particular sample. If they seem to be using the system well during this session, I will leave them to work independently for a while and then check back on them. They can always call me if they experience any issues. All going well, they will be given permission to book the system. If it isn't going well, they will have a 3rd session (or more!) to demonstrate their competence before being able to book the machine.

For us, the most important aspect of training is to build a strong and supportive relationship with the user.  We want them to feel comfortable and confident using the system as well as feeling free to call us if they have any issues, including anything that might result in damage to the system. We also try to make sure that they have a good understanding of how the system actually works, sometimes this takes a while.. We don't want people to stick like glue to the same settings every time because they don't really know what they are doing. Plus we want people to report issues with the system to us directly so that we can sort out any problems including calling the service engineer if need be.

Kind regards,

Jacqui

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon
Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2018 12:00 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Core Facility Training Fees

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*****

Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

[Terri Bruce]

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Hi Kelvin!

We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!

To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!

We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!

Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>
> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
> Kind regards,
> Kelvin

[Göran Månsson]

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Hi Kelvin,

I totally agree with you - there should be a fee so the value of the training (or access to the systems) is appreciated. The users also get assistance whenever they need it and if it's a reasonably short "help session", we don't charge extra for that consultation. One might argue that it's included in the training fee.

We however strive to keep the training fees and pricing in general at a reasonably low level, so group leaders don't avoid having their members use the facility. Training sessions (usually 3h) are around €200 and confocal fees €20/h and the group leaders don't complain about this - they understand that this contributes to that the facility is well equipped with systems and staff.

Best/Göran


Göran Månsson, Manager
BIC – Biomedicum Imaging Core
Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm Sweden



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon
Sent: 21 August 2018 02:00
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Core Facility Training Fees

*****
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http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
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*****

Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

[Ralf Palmisano]

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Hi Kelvin

we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that
initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is
free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within
for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be
charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in
Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.

The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the
instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4
hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project
support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or
PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is
by definition not the scope of the facility.

With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and
agreed by all PIs

Best Ralf



Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Kelvin!
>
> We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!
>
> To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!
>
> We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!
>
> Hope this helps!
> Terri Bruce
> Clemson Light Imaging Facility
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
>> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>>
>> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>>
>> I look forward to your replies!
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Kelvin

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Secretary)
[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Fax)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de

[PEARSON Matthew]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?

Thanks,

Matt

--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM)
University of Edinburgh
Crewe Road
EH4 2XU




On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin

we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.

The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.

With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs

Best Ralf



Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin!

We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!

To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!

We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!

Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Secretary)
[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Fax)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de


*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

[Terri Bruce]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

Hi Matthew!

We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!

So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!

Terri

Like us on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/ClemsonLightImagingFacility

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?

Thanks,

Matt

--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM)
University of Edinburgh
Crewe Road
EH4 2XU




On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin

we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.

The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.

With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs

Best Ralf



Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin!

We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!

To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!

We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!

Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Secretary)
[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Fax)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de<http://www.oice.uni-erlangen.de>
*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

[PEARSON Matthew]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Terri,

I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think about anyway.

Thanks,

Matt


--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM)
University of Edinburgh
Crewe Road
EH4 2XU




On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Matthew!

We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!

So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!

Terri

Like us on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/ClemsonLightImagingFacility

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?

Thanks,

Matt

--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM)
University of Edinburgh
Crewe Road
EH4 2XU




On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin

we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.

The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.

With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs

Best Ralf



Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin!

We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!

To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!

We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!

Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
Member Royal Society of Medicine
Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences

Hartmannstr. 14
91052 Erlangen, Germany

[phone] (Secretary)
[phone] (Office)
[phone] (Fax)

www.oice.uni-erlangen.de<http://www.oice.uni-erlangen.de>
*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

[Armstrong, Brian]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained enough to use a Confocal on their own.

Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire the best images possible.

My 2 cents. Thanks,  

Brian Armstrong PhD
Associate Research Professor
Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
Director, Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope


-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]





*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Terri,

I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think about anyway.

Thanks,

Matt


--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road
EH4 2XU




On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Matthew!

We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!

So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!

Terri

Like us on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/ClemsonLightImagingFacility

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?

Thanks,

Matt

--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road
EH4 2XU




On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin

we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.

The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.

With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs

Best Ralf



Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi Kelvin!

We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!

To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!

We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!

Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

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Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

--
Ralf Palmisano
Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen

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I disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."

We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we want them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the samples to provide advice for improvement or experimental design improvements.

We have our samples on standby to check the instrument or explain what a good sample should look like if theirs don’t work.


Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016
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-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

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Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained enough to use a Confocal on their own.



Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire the best images possible.



My 2 cents. Thanks,  



Brian Armstrong PhD

Associate Research Professor

Developmental and Stem Cell Biology

Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases

Director, Light Microscopy Core

Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope





-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees



[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]











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Hi Terri,



I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think about anyway.



Thanks,



Matt





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Matt Pearson

Microscopy Facility

MRC Human Genetics Unit

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On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



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Hi Matthew!



We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!



So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!



Terri



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From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees



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Hi all,



I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?



Thanks,



Matt



--

Matt Pearson

Microscopy Facility

MRC Human Genetics Unit

Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road

EH4 2XU









On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:



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Hi Kelvin



we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.



The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.



With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs



Best Ralf







Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:

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Hi Kelvin!



We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!



To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!



We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!



Hope this helps!

Terri Bruce

Clemson Light Imaging Facility



Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



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Hi all,



This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.

We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.



In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?



I look forward to your replies!



Kind regards,

Kelvin



--

Ralf Palmisano

Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen



Fellow Royal Microscopical Society

Member Royal Society of Medicine

Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences



Hartmannstr. 14

91052 Erlangen, Germany



[phone] (Secretary)

[phone] (Office)

[phone] (Fax)



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Hello All,
We do charge one time training fee per lab per person. For example, if the person is trained on confocal and we do not charge for training on the 2-photon. Because just change the laser visible to IR and some instructions on selection of wavelength depending on the fluorophore. The hourly charge is different from confocal ($35) to 2-phootn ($40).

I would like to mention that we did some international survey on the microscopy facility with Idea Elan www.IdeaElan.com , if you are interested to see the user fee charges, etc in this link,
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/microscopy-today/article/microscopy-core-facilities-results-of-an-international-survey/E455098D5FCCA2CCB9629604F02145A8 

Best wishes,
Ammasi

Dr. Ammasi Periasamy
Professor & Center Director,
WM Keck Center for Cellular Imaging,
Department of Biology, University of Virginia,
90 Geldard Dr., Charlottesville, VA 22904, USA.

http://www.kcci.virginia.edu/people/profile/ap3t 
Phone: [phone] or 982-4869
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FRET/FLIM Workshop-March 11-15, 2019: http://www.kcci.virginia.edu/workshop 



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon
Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2018 12:00 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Core Facility Training Fees

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Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

[Cammer, Michael]

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We disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."

We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we need them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the experimental goals to provide advice for improvement or experimental design improvements.  Also, users demand that they get real data their first session.

It is useless to show a yeast person who wants to do high speed FRAP how to image a fixed fibroblast stained for beta tubulin.

We have commercially prepared or other samples on standby to check the instrument or explain what a good standard immunofluorescent sample should look like if theirs don’t work.

Fees:

Operating the equipment is one fee.
Training and assistance are additional fees.  Staff are experts who are paid for their knowledge.  

Like dance lessons.  You may rent a dance hall.  You may spin and run and jump around in it, but if you want instruction to do a proper tango, then contract with a dancer/teacher in addition.

Cheers-

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016
[hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ 
Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

*****



Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained enough to use a Confocal on their own.



Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire the best images possible.



My 2 cents. Thanks,  



Brian Armstrong PhD

Associate Research Professor

Developmental and Stem Cell Biology

Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases

Director, Light Microscopy Core

Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope





-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees



[Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]











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Hi Terri,



I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think about anyway.



Thanks,



Matt





--

Matt Pearson

Microscopy Facility

MRC Human Genetics Unit

Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road

EH4 2XU









On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



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Hi Matthew!



We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!



So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!



Terri



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From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees



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Hi all,



I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?



Thanks,



Matt



--

Matt Pearson

Microscopy Facility

MRC Human Genetics Unit

Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road

EH4 2XU









On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:



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Hi Kelvin



we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.



The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.



With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs



Best Ralf







Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:

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Hi Kelvin!



We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!



To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!



We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!



Hope this helps!

Terri Bruce

Clemson Light Imaging Facility



Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



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*****



Hi all,



This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.

We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.



In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?



I look forward to your replies!



Kind regards,

Kelvin



--

Ralf Palmisano

Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen



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Member Royal Society of Medicine

Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences



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Agree that it is best to use a sample provided by the user. It also
provides a chance to determine if the user will be bringing in samples that
are actually worth imaging. It is good to catch issues from the first
session, otherwise the users almost always blame the equipment when the
image of their poorly stained sample does not appear as clearly as the
idealized 'test samples' they previously trained on. In short, I believe
sample preparation evaluation should be part of the training process. That
said, at the end of the day it is up to the user to properly stain their
samples.

Craig

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:32 PM Cammer, Michael <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> We disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample
> because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."
>
> We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the
> instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we
> need them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the
> experimental goals to provide advice for improvement or experimental design
> improvements.  Also, users demand that they get real data their first
> session.
>
> It is useless to show a yeast person who wants to do high speed FRAP how
> to image a fixed fibroblast stained for beta tubulin.
>
> We have commercially prepared or other samples on standby to check the
> instrument or explain what a good standard immunofluorescent sample should
> look like if theirs don’t work.
>
> Fees:
>
> Operating the equipment is one fee.
> Training and assistance are additional fees.  Staff are experts who are
> paid for their knowledge.
>
> Like dance lessons.  You may rent a dance hall.  You may spin and run and
> jump around in it, but if you want instruction to do a proper tango, then
> contract with a dancer/teacher in addition.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
> 10016
> [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros
> http://microscopynotes.com/
> Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people
> to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being
> Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory
> a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will
> "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with
> 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It
> takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained
> enough to use a Confocal on their own.
>
>
>
> Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our
> expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and
> unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire
> the best images possible.
>
>
>
> My 2 cents. Thanks,
>
>
>
> Brian Armstrong PhD
>
> Associate Research Professor
>
> Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
>
> Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
>
> Director, Light Microscopy Core
>
> Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
>
>
> [Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open
> attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Terri,
>
>
>
> I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they
> do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you
> could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't
> contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as
> it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd
> expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think
> about anyway.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Pearson
>
> Microscopy Facility
>
> MRC Human Genetics Unit
>
> Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of
> Edinburgh Crewe Road
>
> EH4 2XU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Matthew!
>
>
>
> We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the
> trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the
> facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account.
> (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal
> ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know
> who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our
> coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by”
> date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are
> applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof,
> but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over
> and over!
>
>
>
> So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons,
> forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the
> machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I
> think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!
>
>
>
> Terri
>
>
>
> Like us on facebook!
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_ClemsonLightImagingFacility&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=YdLIFwPpIC_F3ZpL20iNIBliZFXktFAd0YVEORkOqEE&e=
>
>
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue
> sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or
> don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently
> charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i
> wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's
> or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on
> facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very
> vigilant eye on who is booking and when?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Pearson
>
> Microscopy Facility
>
> MRC Human Genetics Unit
>
> Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of
> Edinburgh Crewe Road
>
> EH4 2XU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%
> 3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Kelvin
>
>
>
> we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that
> initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free
> if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks
> after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4
> hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are
> listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.
>
>
>
> The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument
> (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of
> introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other
> duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or
> post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not
> the scope of the facility.
>
>
>
> With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed
> by all PIs
>
>
>
> Best Ralf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Kelvin!
>
>
>
> We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but
> because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not
> returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a
> great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!
>
>
>
> To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we
> now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and
> practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours
> on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their
> training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return
> within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re
> probably going to have to retrain them at some point!
>
>
>
> We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free”
> training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the
> equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t
> wasting both our time and our money!
>
>
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Terri Bruce
>
> Clemson Light Imaging Facility
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome
> feedback from the community in general.
>
> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of
> the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based
> on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to
> multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility
> staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As
> you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the
> argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>
>
>
> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will
> not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is
> on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons
> (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to
> pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage.
> The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's
> first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value
> in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their
> utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities
> just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from
> high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of
> it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured
> into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is
> very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>
>
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kelvin
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ralf Palmisano
>
> Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen
>
>
>
> Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
>
> Member Royal Society of Medicine
>
> Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences
>
>
>
> Hartmannstr. 14
>
> 91052 Erlangen, Germany
>
>
>
> [phone] (Secretary)
>
> [phone] (Office)
>
> [phone] (Fax)
>
>
>
> www.oice.uni-erlangen.de<
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.oice.uni-2Derlangen.de&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=6sTal9wJqjn9--5vJF5mVMedT--hc8U-b9jH5dMpBsA&e=
> >
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
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>
> Post images on
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> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
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[Michelle Aloni]

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Love the comparison with dance lessons :-). I do pay for those... through my nose 😊.

With this said, we are a teaching facility = University. Our main goal is to provide the best possible service and satisfy the needs of our users.

I like to use student's slides. Yes. They pay only for the time on the scope, but they should get at least some idea of what works and what doesn't based on their experiment for the time they are paying for. We are paid by grant. This is what we do - train and assist. Not only that we don't charge for training and assistance, but we guide with troubleshooting of the staining and experiment structure itself.

Respectfully
Michelle Aloni MS, HTL (ASCP)
Research Specialist, Manager of the Cell and Tissue Imaging Core,
USC Research Center for Liver Diseases, Los Angeles, CA

________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Craig Brideau <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 12:37 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

*****
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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI&r=vgF50MHOKVckLpjE2pt3zg&m=eYTZt4SH15W2vMFlthmhxI19IgEE-dQPBoYqXA5aEr0&s=LnSpgAjeGK1jQ0NyRRGOqxdRmNZhY3z2UV5SNZ6-UMk&e= and include the link in your posting.
*****

Agree that it is best to use a sample provided by the user. It also
provides a chance to determine if the user will be bringing in samples that
are actually worth imaging. It is good to catch issues from the first
session, otherwise the users almost always blame the equipment when the
image of their poorly stained sample does not appear as clearly as the
idealized 'test samples' they previously trained on. In short, I believe
sample preparation evaluation should be part of the training process. That
said, at the end of the day it is up to the user to properly stain their
samples.

Craig

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:32 PM Cammer, Michael <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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> *****
>
> We disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample
> because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."
>
> We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the
> instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we
> need them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the
> experimental goals to provide advice for improvement or experimental design
> improvements.  Also, users demand that they get real data their first
> session.
>
> It is useless to show a yeast person who wants to do high speed FRAP how
> to image a fixed fibroblast stained for beta tubulin.
>
> We have commercially prepared or other samples on standby to check the
> instrument or explain what a good standard immunofluorescent sample should
> look like if theirs don’t work.
>
> Fees:
>
> Operating the equipment is one fee.
> Training and assistance are additional fees.  Staff are experts who are
> paid for their knowledge.
>
> Like dance lessons.  You may rent a dance hall.  You may spin and run and
> jump around in it, but if you want instruction to do a proper tango, then
> contract with a dancer/teacher in addition.
>
> Cheers-
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
> 10016
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>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people
> to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being
> Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory
> a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will
> "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with
> 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It
> takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained
> enough to use a Confocal on their own.
>
>
>
> Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our
> expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and
> unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire
> the best images possible.
>
>
>
> My 2 cents. Thanks,
>
>
>
> Brian Armstrong PhD
>
> Associate Research Professor
>
> Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
>
> Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
>
> Director, Light Microscopy Core
>
> Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
>
>
> [Attention: This email came from an external source. Do not open
> attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails.]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Terri,
>
>
>
> I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they
> do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you
> could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't
> contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as
> it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd
> expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think
> about anyway.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Pearson
>
> Microscopy Facility
>
> MRC Human Genetics Unit
>
> Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of
> Edinburgh Crewe Road
>
> EH4 2XU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Matthew!
>
>
>
> We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the
> trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the
> facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account.
> (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal
> ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know
> who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our
> coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by”
> date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are
> applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof,
> but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over
> and over!
>
>
>
> So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons,
> forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the
> machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I
> think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!
>
>
>
> Terri
>
>
>
> Like us on facebook!
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_ClemsonLightImagingFacility&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=YdLIFwPpIC_F3ZpL20iNIBliZFXktFAd0YVEORkOqEE&e=
>
>
>
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
>
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue
> sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or
> don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently
> charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i
> wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's
> or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on
> facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very
> vigilant eye on who is booking and when?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matt Pearson
>
> Microscopy Facility
>
> MRC Human Genetics Unit
>
> Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of
> Edinburgh Crewe Road
>
> EH4 2XU
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%
> 3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Kelvin
>
>
>
> we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that
> initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free
> if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks
> after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4
> hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are
> listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.
>
>
>
> The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument
> (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of
> introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other
> duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or
> post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not
> the scope of the facility.
>
>
>
> With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed
> by all PIs
>
>
>
> Best Ralf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi Kelvin!
>
>
>
> We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but
> because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not
> returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a
> great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!
>
>
>
> To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we
> now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and
> practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours
> on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their
> training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return
> within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re
> probably going to have to retrain them at some point!
>
>
>
> We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free”
> training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the
> equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t
> wasting both our time and our money!
>
>
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Terri Bruce
>
> Clemson Light Imaging Facility
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=7ebkIL7Ol0QKRw7sb58wfWmyHGrZtJGVOVUWEZwZmWg&e=
>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome
> feedback from the community in general.
>
> We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of
> the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based
> on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to
> multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility
> staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As
> you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the
> argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
>
>
>
> In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will
> not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is
> on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons
> (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to
> pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage.
> The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's
> first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value
> in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their
> utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities
> just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from
> high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of
> it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured
> into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is
> very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
>
>
>
> I look forward to your replies!
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Kelvin
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ralf Palmisano
>
> Head - Optical Imaging Centre Erlangen
>
>
>
> Fellow Royal Microscopical Society
>
> Member Royal Society of Medicine
>
> Board of Directors Core Technologies for Life Sciences
>
>
>
> Hartmannstr. 14
>
> 91052 Erlangen, Germany
>
>
>
> [phone] (Secretary)
>
> [phone] (Office)
>
> [phone] (Fax)
>
>
>
> www.oice.uni-erlangen.de<<http://www.oice.uni-erlangen.de<>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.oice.uni-2Derlangen.de&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=6sTal9wJqjn9--5vJF5mVMedT--hc8U-b9jH5dMpBsA&e=
> >
>
> *****
>
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>
>
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>
> Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIGaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedbOBGmuw5jHLjgvtN2r4ehE&r=oU_05LztNstAydlbm5L5GDu_vAdjXk3frDLx_CqKkuo&m=eqefrLDwpO6adnHSSLwfO1mAOw1ACkFcpx2fIllDvoU&s=WBVWkI-osTV1UcEXbxyFeJ9ab1CNFhiDMBUYhoOR7zU&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
>
> *****
>
>
>
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland,
> with registration number SC005336.
>
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[Periasamy, Ammasi (ap3t)-2]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I forgot to mention one important point in my previous email and this may be helpful for others,

We do not train anyone if they are not planning to use the imaging system. They have to come with their specimens under investigation for training with the confocal or any system available at the Keck Center. We never use microscopy standard samples to train the users, only with their specimens.
Best,
Ammasi


-----Original Message-----
From: Periasamy, Ammasi (ap3t)
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 3:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: Core Facility Training Fees

Hello All,
We do charge one time training fee per lab per person. For example, if the person is trained on confocal and we do not charge for training on the 2-photon. Because just change the laser visible to IR and some instructions on selection of wavelength depending on the fluorophore. The hourly charge is different from confocal ($35) to 2-phootn ($40).

I would like to mention that we did some international survey on the microscopy facility with Idea Elan www.IdeaElan.com , if you are interested to see the user fee charges, etc in this link,
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/microscopy-today/article/microscopy-core-facilities-results-of-an-international-survey/E455098D5FCCA2CCB9629604F02145A8 

Best wishes,
Ammasi

Dr. Ammasi Periasamy
Professor & Center Director,
WM Keck Center for Cellular Imaging,
Department of Biology, University of Virginia,
90 Geldard Dr., Charlottesville, VA 22904, USA.

http://www.kcci.virginia.edu/people/profile/ap3t 
Phone: [phone] or 982-4869
Fax: [phone]
E-mail: [hidden email]

FRET/FLIM Workshop-March 11-15, 2019: http://www.kcci.virginia.edu/workshop 



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kelvin Poon
Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2018 12:00 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Core Facility Training Fees

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Hi all,

This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.

In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?

I look forward to your replies!

Kind regards,
Kelvin

[Z.J. Zhang]

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We always use a standard sample for the first part of the training, but maybe with a different reason.

We found that if we start with users' samples, the users, very often, are being too focused on their samples, rather than the training/operation. Having a very "boring sample" actually helps the training. Before the training, we usually give a 'warning' to the users that this is a "perfect sample" and it is rare that any real-life sample would work like this.

On the second part of the training, we require the user bring their own samples and work with them to optimize the settings. If they don't have their samples ready, we usually ask them to delay the first part of the training.

If users demand real data during training, we would recommend them to start with staff-assisted operation, with an additional hourly charge.

My 2 cents,

Zhaojie Zhang, Ph.D.
Director, Jenkins Microscopy Facility
University of Wyoming
PHONE: [phone]



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Cammer, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 1:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

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We disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."

We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we need them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the experimental goals to provide advice for improvement or experimental design improvements.  Also, users demand that they get real data their first session.

It is useless to show a yeast person who wants to do high speed FRAP how to image a fixed fibroblast stained for beta tubulin.

We have commercially prepared or other samples on standby to check the instrument or explain what a good standard immunofluorescent sample should look like if theirs don’t work.

Fees:

Operating the equipment is one fee.
Training and assistance are additional fees.  Staff are experts who are paid for their knowledge.  

Like dance lessons.  You may rent a dance hall.  You may spin and run and jump around in it, but if you want instruction to do a proper tango, then contract with a dancer/teacher in addition.

Cheers-

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY  10016 [hidden email]  http://nyulmc.org/micros  http://microscopynotes.com/ Voice direct only, no text or messages:  1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees

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Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained enough to use a Confocal on their own.



Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire the best images possible.



My 2 cents. Thanks,  



Brian Armstrong PhD

Associate Research Professor

Developmental and Stem Cell Biology

Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases

Director, Light Microscopy Core

Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope





-----Original Message-----

From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees



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Hi Terri,



I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case.  If they don't contact you then they're charged by default.  That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case.  If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you.  Something for us to think about anyway.



Thanks,



Matt





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Microscopy Facility

MRC Human Genetics Unit

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On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



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Hi Matthew!



We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!



So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!



Terri



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From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew

Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees



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Hi all,



I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig.  We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue.  But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them?  Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?



Thanks,



Matt



--

Matt Pearson

Microscopy Facility

MRC Human Genetics Unit

Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road

EH4 2XU









On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]%3cmailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:



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Hi Kelvin



we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.



The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.



With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs



Best Ralf







Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:

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Hi Kelvin!



We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!



To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!



We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!



Hope this helps!

Terri Bruce

Clemson Light Imaging Facility



Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:



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Hi all,



This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.

We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.



In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?



I look forward to your replies!



Kind regards,

Kelvin



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