Experience/Recommendations with fast Piezo objective scanners

[Nino Karpf]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Dear list,

can you recommend a piezo objective scanner?
I want to buy a fast (~10-20Hz sinusoidal @ 200µm range) piezo scanner to acquire multiphoton 3D volumes. Currently, I’m opting for the Thorlabs piezo system PFM450E. Objective will be either a Nikon CFI75 25X NA 1.1 / Olympus XLPLN25X NA 1.05 (or the like from Leica or Zeiss). So overall rather massive/heavy objectives.

So my questions are:
- Do you have experience with fast motion (>10Hz sinusoidal for 200µm range)? How is the movement? Any hysteresis?
- Do you prefer the Thorlabs system or a PI Pifoc (or similar system)? I’m opting for the Thorlabs system due to the resonant mode at up to 120Hz for 150g objectives.
- Can this be easily implemented into Labview/Micromanager/ICY etc. software environment?

Any recommendations or literature references are welcome!

Thank you,
Nino  

[Benjamin Smith]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I'm not in the lab, so I don't know exactly what piezo-Z we have, but it
does drive the Olympus 20x/1.0NA dipping objective just fine with 30-50 µm
square wave jumps at 30 Hz.  The biggest thing is to make sure the driver
you choose has a position sensor output (ideally as an analog voltage).  As
you allude to, objectives have a fair amount of inertia so you need the
position feedback voltage to know when the objective actually arrives at
the new position so you can add a corresponding delay to the scan.  This
way, you can test your step sequence before you start imaging and record
the actual position as a function of time.  Then take the feedback curves
to determine how much time you'd like to wait before starting the next
scan.  For bonus points, you could readily implement this as a closed loop
feedback - meaning all the decisions happen without user input.

Also, as stated in Appendix D of the Thorlabs manual for the driver you
reference, the repeatability and hysteresis of a piezo driver changes with
temperature and age, and thus the manual also recommends using a position
sensor to resolve these issues.

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:54 PM Sebastian 'Nino' Karpf <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Dear list,
>
> can you recommend a piezo objective scanner?
> I want to buy a fast (~10-20Hz sinusoidal @ 200µm range) piezo scanner to
> acquire multiphoton 3D volumes. Currently, I’m opting for the Thorlabs
> piezo system PFM450E. Objective will be either a Nikon CFI75 25X NA 1.1 /
> Olympus XLPLN25X NA 1.05 (or the like from Leica or Zeiss). So overall
> rather massive/heavy objectives.
>
> So my questions are:
> - Do you have experience with fast motion (>10Hz sinusoidal for 200µm
> range)? How is the movement? Any hysteresis?
> - Do you prefer the Thorlabs system or a PI Pifoc (or similar system)? I’m
> opting for the Thorlabs system due to the resonant mode at up to 120Hz for
> 150g objectives.
> - Can this be easily implemented into Labview/Micromanager/ICY etc.
> software environment?
>
> Any recommendations or literature references are welcome!
>
> Thank you,
> Nino

--
Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
University of California, Berkeley
195 Weill Hall
Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
Tel  [phone]
Fax [phone]
e-mail: [hidden email]
https://vision.berkeley.edu/faculty/core-grants-nei/core-grant-microscopic-imaging/

[Nino Karpf]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Thank you Benjamin! The Thorlabs system hast a position sensor implemented, so I plan on using it closed-loop with an external drive voltage to keep it phase-locked to my microscope acquisition. I can then simply adjust the phase of the driving signal to match the objective movement. This should suffice to account for any delayed movement wrt the driving signal. Of course, if the temperature changes drastically during the measurement, the phase might drift, but I guess I will either have to make my own experience with this or hope that someone here has already done this and can report it.

Best,
Nino

> Am 04.05.2021 um 22:36 schrieb Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I'm not in the lab, so I don't know exactly what piezo-Z we have, but it
> does drive the Olympus 20x/1.0NA dipping objective just fine with 30-50 µm
> square wave jumps at 30 Hz.  The biggest thing is to make sure the driver
> you choose has a position sensor output (ideally as an analog voltage).  As
> you allude to, objectives have a fair amount of inertia so you need the
> position feedback voltage to know when the objective actually arrives at
> the new position so you can add a corresponding delay to the scan.  This
> way, you can test your step sequence before you start imaging and record
> the actual position as a function of time.  Then take the feedback curves
> to determine how much time you'd like to wait before starting the next
> scan.  For bonus points, you could readily implement this as a closed loop
> feedback - meaning all the decisions happen without user input.
>
> Also, as stated in Appendix D of the Thorlabs manual for the driver you
> reference, the repeatability and hysteresis of a piezo driver changes with
> temperature and age, and thus the manual also recommends using a position
> sensor to resolve these issues.
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:54 PM Sebastian 'Nino' Karpf <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> can you recommend a piezo objective scanner?
>> I want to buy a fast (~10-20Hz sinusoidal @ 200µm range) piezo scanner to
>> acquire multiphoton 3D volumes. Currently, I’m opting for the Thorlabs
>> piezo system PFM450E. Objective will be either a Nikon CFI75 25X NA 1.1 /
>> Olympus XLPLN25X NA 1.05 (or the like from Leica or Zeiss). So overall
>> rather massive/heavy objectives.
>>
>> So my questions are:
>> - Do you have experience with fast motion (>10Hz sinusoidal for 200µm
>> range)? How is the movement? Any hysteresis?
>> - Do you prefer the Thorlabs system or a PI Pifoc (or similar system)? I’m
>> opting for the Thorlabs system due to the resonant mode at up to 120Hz for
>> 150g objectives.
>> - Can this be easily implemented into Labview/Micromanager/ICY etc.
>> software environment?
>>
>> Any recommendations or literature references are welcome!
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Nino
>
>
>
> --
> Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
> Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
> University of California, Berkeley
> 195 Weill Hall
> Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
> Tel  [phone]
> Fax [phone]
> e-mail: [hidden email]
> https://vision.berkeley.edu/faculty/core-grants-nei/core-grant-microscopic-imaging/

[Nino Karpf]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Dear Ben,

I’m curious which piezo stage you’re using, since you report you have good results with it with a fairly heavy objective and fast movements. Do you have the exact model of your piezo stage?

Best,
Nino

> Am 04.05.2021 um 22:36 schrieb Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I'm not in the lab, so I don't know exactly what piezo-Z we have, but it
> does drive the Olympus 20x/1.0NA dipping objective just fine with 30-50 µm
> square wave jumps at 30 Hz.  The biggest thing is to make sure the driver
> you choose has a position sensor output (ideally as an analog voltage).  As
> you allude to, objectives have a fair amount of inertia so you need the
> position feedback voltage to know when the objective actually arrives at
> the new position so you can add a corresponding delay to the scan.  This
> way, you can test your step sequence before you start imaging and record
> the actual position as a function of time.  Then take the feedback curves
> to determine how much time you'd like to wait before starting the next
> scan.  For bonus points, you could readily implement this as a closed loop
> feedback - meaning all the decisions happen without user input.
>
> Also, as stated in Appendix D of the Thorlabs manual for the driver you
> reference, the repeatability and hysteresis of a piezo driver changes with
> temperature and age, and thus the manual also recommends using a position
> sensor to resolve these issues.
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:54 PM Sebastian 'Nino' Karpf <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> can you recommend a piezo objective scanner?
>> I want to buy a fast (~10-20Hz sinusoidal @ 200µm range) piezo scanner to
>> acquire multiphoton 3D volumes. Currently, I’m opting for the Thorlabs
>> piezo system PFM450E. Objective will be either a Nikon CFI75 25X NA 1.1 /
>> Olympus XLPLN25X NA 1.05 (or the like from Leica or Zeiss). So overall
>> rather massive/heavy objectives.
>>
>> So my questions are:
>> - Do you have experience with fast motion (>10Hz sinusoidal for 200µm
>> range)? How is the movement? Any hysteresis?
>> - Do you prefer the Thorlabs system or a PI Pifoc (or similar system)? I’m
>> opting for the Thorlabs system due to the resonant mode at up to 120Hz for
>> 150g objectives.
>> - Can this be easily implemented into Labview/Micromanager/ICY etc.
>> software environment?
>>
>> Any recommendations or literature references are welcome!
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Nino
>
>
>
> --
> Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
> Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
> University of California, Berkeley
> 195 Weill Hall
> Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
> Tel  [phone]
> Fax [phone]
> e-mail: [hidden email]
> https://vision.berkeley.edu/faculty/core-grants-nei/core-grant-microscopic-imaging/

[CHOBLET Samuel]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Dear Nino,

For a piezostage, there is always a compromise between speed and travel range.

Generally speaking, step scanning at 30Hz is definitely possible but only if the travel range is limited to 100µm.

For piezostage which has travel range strictly higher than 100µm, we have to use amplifier. These amplifiers increases the travel range, but the stage becomes slower.

To give you some numbers :
- the step response time of our high speed 100µm piezostage (such as a FOCHS100) is 3-6ms
- the step response time of our "standard speed" 200µm piezostage (such as a FOC200) is 20-25ms. As a consequence, the step scanning at 30Hz is not possible with a 200µm travel range piezo.

I hope that the above will help you to understand the physics of piezostages !

Wishing you a great day.

Best regards,

Samuel CHOBLET
********************************************************************************************************
PIEZOCONCEPT
15 Rue du Bocage
69008 LYON (France)
Home office (most of my time) : [phone]
Phone Europe : [phone]
Phone USA : [phone]
Email : [hidden email]
********************************************************************************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Sebastian 'Nino' Karpf
Sent: mardi 11 mai 2021 08:51
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Experience/Recommendations with fast Piezo objective scanners

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Dear Ben,

I’m curious which piezo stage you’re using, since you report you have good results with it with a fairly heavy objective and fast movements. Do you have the exact model of your piezo stage?

Best,
Nino

> Am 04.05.2021 um 22:36 schrieb Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I'm not in the lab, so I don't know exactly what piezo-Z we have, but
> it does drive the Olympus 20x/1.0NA dipping objective just fine with
> 30-50 µm square wave jumps at 30 Hz.  The biggest thing is to make
> sure the driver you choose has a position sensor output (ideally as an
> analog voltage).  As you allude to, objectives have a fair amount of
> inertia so you need the position feedback voltage to know when the
> objective actually arrives at the new position so you can add a
> corresponding delay to the scan.  This way, you can test your step
> sequence before you start imaging and record the actual position as a
> function of time.  Then take the feedback curves to determine how much
> time you'd like to wait before starting the next scan.  For bonus
> points, you could readily implement this as a closed loop feedback - meaning all the decisions happen without user input.
>
> Also, as stated in Appendix D of the Thorlabs manual for the driver
> you reference, the repeatability and hysteresis of a piezo driver
> changes with temperature and age, and thus the manual also recommends
> using a position sensor to resolve these issues.
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:54 PM Sebastian 'Nino' Karpf
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> can you recommend a piezo objective scanner?
>> I want to buy a fast (~10-20Hz sinusoidal @ 200µm range) piezo
>> scanner to acquire multiphoton 3D volumes. Currently, I’m opting for
>> the Thorlabs piezo system PFM450E. Objective will be either a Nikon
>> CFI75 25X NA 1.1 / Olympus XLPLN25X NA 1.05 (or the like from Leica
>> or Zeiss). So overall rather massive/heavy objectives.
>>
>> So my questions are:
>> - Do you have experience with fast motion (>10Hz sinusoidal for 200µm
>> range)? How is the movement? Any hysteresis?
>> - Do you prefer the Thorlabs system or a PI Pifoc (or similar
>> system)? I’m opting for the Thorlabs system due to the resonant mode
>> at up to 120Hz for 150g objectives.
>> - Can this be easily implemented into Labview/Micromanager/ICY etc.
>> software environment?
>>
>> Any recommendations or literature references are welcome!
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Nino
>
>
>
> --
> Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
> Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
> University of California, Berkeley
> 195 Weill Hall
> Berkeley, CA  94720-3200
> Tel  [phone]
> Fax [phone]
> e-mail: [hidden email]
> https://vision.berkeley.edu/faculty/core-grants-nei/core-grant-microscopic-imaging/

--
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus