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advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

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Cammer, Michael

advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

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We have been told to move a Zeiss 700 confocal with environmental chamber for live work into a newly renovated room and wanted to ask advice about this move.

As users walk in, the wall on the left has the main electricity for a large segment of the floor. In the corner of the room is a Symmetra LX power conditioning module the size of a small filing cabinet that hums and buzzes. The microscope would be placed immediately next to this. Picture at
http://microscopynotes.com/700/temp/20190801_110630_room_view_labeled_web.png

Our question is whether this electricity conditioning immediately adjacent to a Zeiss confocal would do anything to image quality. Also, a Nikon A1 would be placed approximately 2 meters away in the same room.

Thank you.

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016
C: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> http://nyulmc.org/micros http://microscopynotes.com/

Craig Brideau

Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

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Hi Michael, I'm assuming you're fishing for people to agree with you that
this is a bad idea, so let me just say this is a bad idea. :)
Electrical noise can be very unpredictable, as things like cable length,
direction, loops, etc. all govern how a wire acts as an antenna (or not).
That said, locating a system next to an electrical distribution transformer
would appear to be asking for trouble. In addition, the A/C vent directly
above the proposed location of the microscope will cause issues with
thermal stability. If the system is installed in that room, I suspect you
will end up expending considerable time and resources attempting to deal
with electrical and ventilation issues to achieve usable results with the
microscope.

Craig

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:39 PM Cammer, Michael <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> We have been told to move a Zeiss 700 confocal with environmental chamber
> for live work into a newly renovated room and wanted to ask advice about
> this move.
>
> As users walk in, the wall on the left has the main electricity for a
> large segment of the floor. In the corner of the room is a Symmetra LX
> power conditioning module the size of a small filing cabinet that hums and
> buzzes. The microscope would be placed immediately next to this. Picture
> at
>
> http://microscopynotes.com/700/temp/20190801_110630_room_view_labeled_web.png
>
> Our question is whether this electricity conditioning immediately adjacent
> to a Zeiss confocal would do anything to image quality. Also, a Nikon A1
> would be placed approximately 2 meters away in the same room.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
> 10016
> C: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]> http://nyulmc.org/micros
> http://microscopynotes.com/
>

Rosemary White

Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

In reply to this post by Cammer, Michael

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*****

Hi Michael,

Not sure about Zeiss detectors, but this would likely interfere with Leica HyD detectors - by inference, you may get spots and streaks in images from GaSP detectors. What does Zeiss have to say about this?

good luck,
cheers,
Rosemary

Dr Rosemary White
CSIRO Black Mountain
GPO Box 1700
ACT 2601, Australia

M: 61-0468966713
E: [hidden email]
________________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Cammer, Michael [[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2019 7:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

We have been told to move a Zeiss 700 confocal with environmental chamber for live work into a newly renovated room and wanted to ask advice about this move.

As users walk in, the wall on the left has the main electricity for a large segment of the floor. In the corner of the room is a Symmetra LX power conditioning module the size of a small filing cabinet that hums and buzzes. The microscope would be placed immediately next to this. Picture at
http://microscopynotes.com/700/temp/20190801_110630_room_view_labeled_web.png

Our question is whether this electricity conditioning immediately adjacent to a Zeiss confocal would do anything to image quality. Also, a Nikon A1 would be placed approximately 2 meters away in the same room.

Thank you.

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016
C: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> http://nyulmc.org/micros http://microscopynotes.com/

Benjamin Smith

Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

In reply to this post by Craig Brideau

*****
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*****

I was just about to point out the same things as Craig.

1) The A/C vent will definitely cause thermal cycling of the microscope,
especially if the thermostat is far from that spot. This will cause many
issues including:

- Thermal creep - This is when optics don't return back to their
original position when thermally cycled. Therefore, each cycle will cause
the optics to gradually walk further and further out of alignment,
requiring more frequent service visits.
- Drift of optimal z-corrections - when using correction collar
objective and imaging at the resolution limit of the system, you will
notice a drift in the point spread function if the thermal cycling is bad
enough and at a low enough frequency.
- I would also be concerned about how much the power conditioner is
going to add to the thermal load

One other note, if you have large dynamic thermal loads (such as multiple
people in the same room, argon lasers, multiple scopes running, servers)
this will greatly aggravate the thermal cycling issue.

2) The power conditioner may or may not cause issues, but as a core
facility manager, that is definitely not a game you really want to play.
We had some UPS's backing up our microscopes, and when they kicked into
battery mode, the sharp PWM ripple from the inverter did cause some noise
to show up in the PMT signal (about 2m away). That said, your UPS is a
double conversion supply, meaning it is constantly running through an
inverter, which emit a fair amount of EMI due to the high-power switching
inside the inverter. Given that this is only FCC Class A rated (see here
for more details: http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/slyy142/slyy142.pdf page 8),
there is a reasonable chance this will be emitting enough EMI that if the
PMTs happen to be in an anti-node you would get some noise in the
detectors. Additionally, changing the position of equipment in the room
can change the positions of node and anti-nodes, meaning things may be fine
at first, but when you add another scope then you will see noise which is
actually from the inverter and not the new scope. Hence the point about
not wanting to play this sort of game.

Also, one final concern is the conditioner is rated at 65db. While below
OSHA guidelines, the microscopes themselves will also be emitting a fair
amount of noise, which will be additive to the 65db baseline. Therefore,
there is also a risk (although slight), that the room may start to exceed
safety ratings. That said, who on earth would want to do a 6 hour imaging
run with a 65 db inverter buzzing right next to them?!

Hope this helps,
Ben Smith

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:45 PM Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Cammer, Michael

Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Thank you for the replies so far. We are well aware of the HVAC issues; they are worse than you see in the picture and essentially illustrate what you say not to do. Of course, additional info and arguments from disinterested parties to pass on are always welcome.

But we really don't know whether the electrical equipment would be problematic, hence the questions. We know the incessant buzzing noise is annoying and that the fault alarm is supposed to be painfully loud (we haven't heard it, yet). Any answers regarding electrical concerns would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers-

Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory

NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> http://nyulmc.org/micros http://microscopynotes.com/

Voice direct only, no text or messages: 1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567

________________________________
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 6:57:15 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

*****
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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=pNh2MsVgXhJvFDo7rXe93fnAy0skGU64et62YLtMlK8&e= and include the link in your posting.
*****

I was just about to point out the same things as Craig.

1) The A/C vent will definitely cause thermal cycling of the microscope,
especially if the thermostat is far from that spot. This will cause many
issues including:

- Thermal creep - This is when optics don't return back to their
original position when thermally cycled. Therefore, each cycle will cause
the optics to gradually walk further and further out of alignment,
requiring more frequent service visits.
- Drift of optimal z-corrections - when using correction collar
objective and imaging at the resolution limit of the system, you will
notice a drift in the point spread function if the thermal cycling is bad
enough and at a low enough frequency.
- I would also be concerned about how much the power conditioner is
going to add to the thermal load

One other note, if you have large dynamic thermal loads (such as multiple
people in the same room, argon lasers, multiple scopes running, servers)
this will greatly aggravate the thermal cycling issue.

2) The power conditioner may or may not cause issues, but as a core
facility manager, that is definitely not a game you really want to play.
We had some UPS's backing up our microscopes, and when they kicked into
battery mode, the sharp PWM ripple from the inverter did cause some noise
to show up in the PMT signal (about 2m away). That said, your UPS is a
double conversion supply, meaning it is constantly running through an
inverter, which emit a fair amount of EMI due to the high-power switching
inside the inverter. Given that this is only FCC Class A rated (see here
for more details: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ti.com_lit_wp_slyy142_slyy142.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=kVaAigqpV9BrdfQvexYZUzR1quvoOlscLdlHNOKPi64&e= page 8),
there is a reasonable chance this will be emitting enough EMI that if the
PMTs happen to be in an anti-node you would get some noise in the
detectors. Additionally, changing the position of equipment in the room
can change the positions of node and anti-nodes, meaning things may be fine
at first, but when you add another scope then you will see noise which is
actually from the inverter and not the new scope. Hence the point about
not wanting to play this sort of game.

Also, one final concern is the conditioner is rated at 65db. While below
OSHA guidelines, the microscopes themselves will also be emitting a fair
amount of noise, which will be additive to the 65db baseline. Therefore,
there is also a risk (although slight), that the room may start to exceed
safety ratings. That said, who on earth would want to do a 6 hour imaging
run with a 65 db inverter buzzing right next to them?!

Hope this helps,
Ben Smith

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:45 PM Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I was just about to point out the same things as Craig.
>
> 1) The A/C vent will definitely cause thermal cycling of the microscope,
> especially if the thermostat is far from that spot. This will cause many
> issues including:
>
> - Thermal creep - This is when optics don't return back to their
> original position when thermally cycled. Therefore, each cycle will cause
> the optics to gradually walk further and further out of alignment,
> requiring more frequent service visits.
> - Drift of optimal z-corrections - when using correction collar
> objective and imaging at the resolution limit of the system, you will
> notice a drift in the point spread function if the thermal cycling is bad
> enough and at a low enough frequency.
> - I would also be concerned about how much the power conditioner is
> going to add to the thermal load
>
> One other note, if you have large dynamic thermal loads (such as multiple
> people in the same room, argon lasers, multiple scopes running, servers)
> this will greatly aggravate the thermal cycling issue.
>
> 2) The power conditioner may or may not cause issues, but as a core
> facility manager, that is definitely not a game you really want to play.
> We had some UPS's backing up our microscopes, and when they kicked into
> battery mode, the sharp PWM ripple from the inverter did cause some noise
> to show up in the PMT signal (about 2m away). That said, your UPS is a
> double conversion supply, meaning it is constantly running through an
> inverter, which emit a fair amount of EMI due to the high-power switching
> inside the inverter. Given that this is only FCC Class A rated (see here
> for more details: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ti.com_lit_wp_slyy142_slyy142.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=kVaAigqpV9BrdfQvexYZUzR1quvoOlscLdlHNOKPi64&e= page 8),
> there is a reasonable chance this will be emitting enough EMI that if the
> PMTs happen to be in an anti-node, then there is a reasonable chance you
> would get some noise in the detectors. Additionally, changing the position
> of equipment in the room can change the positions of node and anti-nodes,
> meaning things may be fine at first, but when you add another scope then
> you will see noise which is actually from the inverter and not the new
> scope. Hence the point about not wanting to play this sort of game.
>
> Also, one final concern is the conditioner is rated at 65db. While below
> OSHA guidelines, the microscopes themselves will also be emitting a fair
> amount of noise, which will be additive to the 65db baseline. Therefore,
> there is also a risk (although slight), that the room may start to exceed
> safety ratings. That said, who on earth would want to do a 6 hour imaging
> run with a 65 db inverter buzzing right next to them?!
>
> Hope this helps,
> Ben Smith
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 2:48 PM Craig Brideau <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=X5QvYR8AlrqftSJhhaL8u2J_3KwwH8atseSmtRPrCdI&e=
>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=pNh2MsVgXhJvFDo7rXe93fnAy0skGU64et62YLtMlK8&e= and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Hi Michael, I'm assuming you're fishing for people to agree with you that
>> this is a bad idea, so let me just say this is a bad idea. :)
>> Electrical noise can be very unpredictable, as things like cable length,
>> direction, loops, etc. all govern how a wire acts as an antenna (or not).
>> That said, locating a system next to an electrical distribution
>> transformer
>> would appear to be asking for trouble. In addition, the A/C vent directly
>> above the proposed location of the microscope will cause issues with
>> thermal stability. If the system is installed in that room, I suspect you
>> will end up expending considerable time and resources attempting to deal
>> with electrical and ventilation issues to achieve usable results with the
>> microscope.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:39 PM Cammer, Michael <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > *****
>> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=X5QvYR8AlrqftSJhhaL8u2J_3KwwH8atseSmtRPrCdI&e=
>> > Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=pNh2MsVgXhJvFDo7rXe93fnAy0skGU64et62YLtMlK8&e= and include the link in your
>> posting.
>> > *****
>> >
>> > We have been told to move a Zeiss 700 confocal with environmental
>> chamber
>> > for live work into a newly renovated room and wanted to ask advice about
>> > this move.
>> >
>> > As users walk in, the wall on the left has the main electricity for a
>> > large segment of the floor. In the corner of the room is a Symmetra LX
>> > power conditioning module the size of a small filing cabinet that hums
>> and
>> > buzzes. The microscope would be placed immediately next to this.
>> Picture
>> > at
>> >
>> >
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_700_temp_20190801-5F110630-5Froom-5Fview-5Flabeled-5Fweb.png&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=O7bittu5YCwIgBmlMz-rdH7O0OyTA3AjNhIyPuySf10&e=
>> >
>> > Our question is whether this electricity conditioning immediately
>> adjacent
>> > to a Zeiss confocal would do anything to image quality. Also, a Nikon
>> A1
>> > would be placed approximately 2 meters away in the same room.
>> >
>> > Thank you.
>> >
>> > Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
>> > NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
>> > 10016
>> > C: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]<mailto:
>> > [hidden email]> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=q7-94MHAxKwXfHy7OjxBblC3BvsF-PAMeOSHlLvqq-0&e=
>> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=5EtfTt4MNdOFokQsV8Nt4VbJQgWW9qklB4TBYLUBYw0&e=
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
> Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
> University of California, Berkeley
> 195 Life Sciences Addition
> Berkeley, CA 94720-3200
> Tel (510) 642-9712
> Fax (510) 643-6791
> e-mail: [hidden email]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_-3Fpage-5Fid-3D5635&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=mo3u2NqxihLJ0jBOHZVkXT7XByvwefRiZUwb1ccv7R0&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=J8v5oYBfqKda-xW6HZYDcsBHG0MUIJvgd2b5kLRttBs&e= >
>

--
Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
University of California, Berkeley
195 Life Sciences Addition
Berkeley, CA 94720-3200
Tel (510) 642-9712
Fax (510) 643-6791
e-mail: [hidden email]
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_-3Fpage-5Fid-3D5635&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=mo3u2NqxihLJ0jBOHZVkXT7XByvwefRiZUwb1ccv7R0&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=J8v5oYBfqKda-xW6HZYDcsBHG0MUIJvgd2b5kLRttBs&e= >

Craig Brideau

Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

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*****

Line voltages, especially combined with switching or other power regulation
devices, generate broad spectrum electrical noise that is very difficult to
predict. The detectors in microscopes are shielded to some extent, but the
shielding can only protect to a certain degree. I am sure the original
engineers did not consider the highly questionable case of parking the
microscope directly adjacent to power control equipment when they designed
the circuitry for the system. It is possible to have the electromagnetic
interference (EMI) in the room mapped out by a professional in the wireless
industry, but the field map can change as Ben mentioned with the addition
of objects to the room. If your only other option is a leaky shed in the
field out back, then take this room. Otherwise, I sincerely hope you can
convince the decision-makers involved in this matter that putting a
microscope in that room will only lead to costly headaches down the road.

Craig

On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 11:30 AM Cammer, Michael <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> But we really don't know whether the electrical equipment would be
> problematic, hence the questions. We know the incessant buzzing noise is
> annoying and that the fault alarm is supposed to be painfully loud (we
> haven't heard it, yet). Any answers regarding electrical concerns would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Cheers-
>
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
>
> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
> 10016
>
>
>

Christian Feldhaus

Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment

In reply to this post by Cammer, Michael

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi,

the buzzing noise can not only be annoying but also affect your imaging.
We unfortunately have to observe that with the AC device they put into
our LSM 780 room. Its deep humming noise (ranging from ~ 20Hz to ~
100Hz) prevents us to reach full specs at high resolutions (especially z
stability, samples are slightly vibrating up and down). When we switch
off the device everything is OK.

Kind regards,

Christian

On 04.08.19 19:09, Cammer, Michael wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Thank you for the replies so far. We are well aware of the HVAC issues; they are worse than you see in the picture and essentially illustrate what you say not to do. Of course, additional info and arguments from disinterested parties to pass on are always welcome.
>
>
> But we really don't know whether the electrical equipment would be problematic, hence the questions. We know the incessant buzzing noise is annoying and that the fault alarm is supposed to be painfully loud (we haven't heard it, yet). Any answers regarding electrical concerns would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Cheers-
>
>
> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
>
> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016
>
> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> http://nyulmc.org/micros http://microscopynotes.com/
>
> Voice direct only, no text or messages: 1-914-309-3270 and 1-646-501-0567
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 6:57:15 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: advice on proximity of scopes to line conditioning equipment
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=X5QvYR8AlrqftSJhhaL8u2J_3KwwH8atseSmtRPrCdI&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=pNh2MsVgXhJvFDo7rXe93fnAy0skGU64et62YLtMlK8&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I was just about to point out the same things as Craig.
>
> 1) The A/C vent will definitely cause thermal cycling of the microscope,
> especially if the thermostat is far from that spot. This will cause many
> issues including:
>
> - Thermal creep - This is when optics don't return back to their
> original position when thermally cycled. Therefore, each cycle will cause
> the optics to gradually walk further and further out of alignment,
> requiring more frequent service visits.
> - Drift of optimal z-corrections - when using correction collar
> objective and imaging at the resolution limit of the system, you will
> notice a drift in the point spread function if the thermal cycling is bad
> enough and at a low enough frequency.
> - I would also be concerned about how much the power conditioner is
> going to add to the thermal load
>
> One other note, if you have large dynamic thermal loads (such as multiple
> people in the same room, argon lasers, multiple scopes running, servers)
> this will greatly aggravate the thermal cycling issue.
>
> 2) The power conditioner may or may not cause issues, but as a core
> facility manager, that is definitely not a game you really want to play.
> We had some UPS's backing up our microscopes, and when they kicked into
> battery mode, the sharp PWM ripple from the inverter did cause some noise
> to show up in the PMT signal (about 2m away). That said, your UPS is a
> double conversion supply, meaning it is constantly running through an
> inverter, which emit a fair amount of EMI due to the high-power switching
> inside the inverter. Given that this is only FCC Class A rated (see here
> for more details: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ti.com_lit_wp_slyy142_slyy142.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=kVaAigqpV9BrdfQvexYZUzR1quvoOlscLdlHNOKPi64&e= page 8),
> there is a reasonable chance this will be emitting enough EMI that if the
> PMTs happen to be in an anti-node you would get some noise in the
> detectors. Additionally, changing the position of equipment in the room
> can change the positions of node and anti-nodes, meaning things may be fine
> at first, but when you add another scope then you will see noise which is
> actually from the inverter and not the new scope. Hence the point about
> not wanting to play this sort of game.
>
> Also, one final concern is the conditioner is rated at 65db. While below
> OSHA guidelines, the microscopes themselves will also be emitting a fair
> amount of noise, which will be additive to the 65db baseline. Therefore,
> there is also a risk (although slight), that the room may start to exceed
> safety ratings. That said, who on earth would want to do a 6 hour imaging
> run with a 65 db inverter buzzing right next to them?!
>
> Hope this helps,
> Ben Smith
>
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:45 PM Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I was just about to point out the same things as Craig.
>>
>> 1) The A/C vent will definitely cause thermal cycling of the microscope,
>> especially if the thermostat is far from that spot. This will cause many
>> issues including:
>>
>> - Thermal creep - This is when optics don't return back to their
>> original position when thermally cycled. Therefore, each cycle will cause
>> the optics to gradually walk further and further out of alignment,
>> requiring more frequent service visits.
>> - Drift of optimal z-corrections - when using correction collar
>> objective and imaging at the resolution limit of the system, you will
>> notice a drift in the point spread function if the thermal cycling is bad
>> enough and at a low enough frequency.
>> - I would also be concerned about how much the power conditioner is
>> going to add to the thermal load
>>
>> One other note, if you have large dynamic thermal loads (such as multiple
>> people in the same room, argon lasers, multiple scopes running, servers)
>> this will greatly aggravate the thermal cycling issue.
>>
>> 2) The power conditioner may or may not cause issues, but as a core
>> facility manager, that is definitely not a game you really want to play.
>> We had some UPS's backing up our microscopes, and when they kicked into
>> battery mode, the sharp PWM ripple from the inverter did cause some noise
>> to show up in the PMT signal (about 2m away). That said, your UPS is a
>> double conversion supply, meaning it is constantly running through an
>> inverter, which emit a fair amount of EMI due to the high-power switching
>> inside the inverter. Given that this is only FCC Class A rated (see here
>> for more details: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ti.com_lit_wp_slyy142_slyy142.pdf&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=kVaAigqpV9BrdfQvexYZUzR1quvoOlscLdlHNOKPi64&e= page 8),
>> there is a reasonable chance this will be emitting enough EMI that if the
>> PMTs happen to be in an anti-node, then there is a reasonable chance you
>> would get some noise in the detectors. Additionally, changing the position
>> of equipment in the room can change the positions of node and anti-nodes,
>> meaning things may be fine at first, but when you add another scope then
>> you will see noise which is actually from the inverter and not the new
>> scope. Hence the point about not wanting to play this sort of game.
>>
>> Also, one final concern is the conditioner is rated at 65db. While below
>> OSHA guidelines, the microscopes themselves will also be emitting a fair
>> amount of noise, which will be additive to the 65db baseline. Therefore,
>> there is also a risk (although slight), that the room may start to exceed
>> safety ratings. That said, who on earth would want to do a 6 hour imaging
>> run with a 65 db inverter buzzing right next to them?!
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>> Ben Smith
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 2:48 PM Craig Brideau <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> *****
>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=X5QvYR8AlrqftSJhhaL8u2J_3KwwH8atseSmtRPrCdI&e=
>>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=pNh2MsVgXhJvFDo7rXe93fnAy0skGU64et62YLtMlK8&e= and include the link in your posting.
>>> *****
>>>
>>> Hi Michael, I'm assuming you're fishing for people to agree with you that
>>> this is a bad idea, so let me just say this is a bad idea. :)
>>> Electrical noise can be very unpredictable, as things like cable length,
>>> direction, loops, etc. all govern how a wire acts as an antenna (or not).
>>> That said, locating a system next to an electrical distribution
>>> transformer
>>> would appear to be asking for trouble. In addition, the A/C vent directly
>>> above the proposed location of the microscope will cause issues with
>>> thermal stability. If the system is installed in that room, I suspect you
>>> will end up expending considerable time and resources attempting to deal
>>> with electrical and ventilation issues to achieve usable results with the
>>> microscope.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:39 PM Cammer, Michael <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *****
>>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=X5QvYR8AlrqftSJhhaL8u2J_3KwwH8atseSmtRPrCdI&e=
>>>> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=pNh2MsVgXhJvFDo7rXe93fnAy0skGU64et62YLtMlK8&e= and include the link in your
>>> posting.
>>>> *****
>>>>
>>>> We have been told to move a Zeiss 700 confocal with environmental
>>> chamber
>>>> for live work into a newly renovated room and wanted to ask advice about
>>>> this move.
>>>>
>>>> As users walk in, the wall on the left has the main electricity for a
>>>> large segment of the floor. In the corner of the room is a Symmetra LX
>>>> power conditioning module the size of a small filing cabinet that hums
>>> and
>>>> buzzes. The microscope would be placed immediately next to this.
>>> Picture
>>>> at
>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_700_temp_20190801-5F110630-5Froom-5Fview-5Flabeled-5Fweb.png&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=O7bittu5YCwIgBmlMz-rdH7O0OyTA3AjNhIyPuySf10&e=
>>>> Our question is whether this electricity conditioning immediately
>>> adjacent
>>>> to a Zeiss confocal would do anything to image quality. Also, a Nikon
>>> A1
>>>> would be placed approximately 2 meters away in the same room.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
>>>> NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY
>>>> 10016
>>>> C: 914-309-3270 [hidden email]<mailto:
>>>> [hidden email]> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__nyulmc.org_micros&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=q7-94MHAxKwXfHy7OjxBblC3BvsF-PAMeOSHlLvqq-0&e=
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__microscopynotes.com_&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=5EtfTt4MNdOFokQsV8Nt4VbJQgWW9qklB4TBYLUBYw0&e=
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
>> Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 195 Life Sciences Addition
>> Berkeley, CA 94720-3200
>> Tel (510) 642-9712
>> Fax (510) 643-6791
>> e-mail: [hidden email]
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_-3Fpage-5Fid-3D5635&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=mo3u2NqxihLJ0jBOHZVkXT7XByvwefRiZUwb1ccv7R0&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=J8v5oYBfqKda-xW6HZYDcsBHG0MUIJvgd2b5kLRttBs&e= >
>>
>
> --
> Benjamin E. Smith, Ph. D.
> Imaging Specialist, Vision Science
> University of California, Berkeley
> 195 Life Sciences Addition
> Berkeley, CA 94720-3200
> Tel (510) 642-9712
> Fax (510) 643-6791
> e-mail: [hidden email]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_-3Fpage-5Fid-3D5635&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=mo3u2NqxihLJ0jBOHZVkXT7XByvwefRiZUwb1ccv7R0&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__vision.berkeley.edu_&d=DwIBaQ&c=j5oPpO0eBH1iio48DtsedeElZfc04rx3ExJHeIIZuCs&r=E0xNnPAQpUbDiPlC50tp7rW2nBkvV7fujQf0RknE5bU&m=XeYGSdrugnaZ1XI5JzpRIwU0WpWsNa7T0yIr6LeH-sU&s=J8v5oYBfqKda-xW6HZYDcsBHG0MUIJvgd2b5kLRttBs&e= >

--
Christian Feldhaus, PhD
Light Microscopy Facility
MPI for Developmental Biology

Max-Planck-Ring 5 (Spemannstrasse 35)
72076 Tübingen
Germany

deliveries to:
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Tel.: ++49 7071 601443