camera for fluorescence <$4000

[Aryeh Weiss]

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I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
under $4k.
It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
camera to see it.

I found a similar question on the list from 2014
https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4

but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
wondering what else is out there.

Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have found.

Thanks in advance
--aryeh

--
Aryeh Weiss
Faculty of Engineering
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900 Israel

Ph:  972-3-5317638
FAX: [phone]

[Craig Brideau]

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I've used a 'machine vision' grade camera for basic fluorescence microscopy
with decently bright samples with some success. They are meant for robotic
sorting applications and the like so they give a decent image, although
they are lacking in sensitivity compared to a 'real' microscopy camera. If
you can see it clearly by eye though this type of camera should be adequate.

Craig

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
> under $4k.
> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
> camera to see it.
>
> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
>
> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
>
> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
> wondering what else is out there.
>
> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
> with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
> found.
>
> Thanks in advance
> --aryeh
>
> --
> Aryeh Weiss
> Faculty of Engineering
> Bar Ilan University
> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>
> Ph:  972-3-5317638
> FAX: [phone]
>

[Armstrong, Brian]

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Hi Aryeh, I think that you can get a good scientific camera for that much from Q Imaging. Thor Labs also has CCD cameras around this price point.
I inherited 4 astronomy cameras and was very disappointed with them and ended up just giving them away.

Best of luck,  

Brian D Armstrong PhD
Associate Research Professor
Director, Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute
City of Hope
1450 E Duarte Rd
Duarte, CA 91010
626-256-4673 x62872



-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aryeh Weiss
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 12:26 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: camera for fluorescence <$4000

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
under $4k.
It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
camera to see it.

I found a similar question on the list from 2014
https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4

but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
wondering what else is out there.

Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have found.

Thanks in advance
--aryeh

--
Aryeh Weiss
Faculty of Engineering
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900 Israel

Ph:  972-3-5317638
FAX: [phone]


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[Michael Giacomelli]

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Point Grey periodically updates their evaluation of cost-effective sensors:

https://www.ptgrey.com/camera-sensor-review

The newly added IMX264/IMX265 series sensors obtain a read noise of about
2.3 electrons and an absolute sensitivity of about 4 photons.  sCMOS will
do better (read noise of about 1 electron on the newest models).  From the
brightness of your specimen you can get a rough idea how well that will
work for you.

Mike


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Craig Brideau <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I've used a 'machine vision' grade camera for basic fluorescence microscopy
> with decently bright samples with some success. They are meant for robotic
> sorting applications and the like so they give a decent image, although
> they are lacking in sensitivity compared to a 'real' microscopy camera. If
> you can see it clearly by eye though this type of camera should be
> adequate.
>
> Craig
>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
> posting.
> > *****
> >
> > I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
> > under $4k.
> > It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
> > camera to see it.
> >
> > I found a similar question on the list from 2014
> >
> >
> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
> >
> > but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
> > wondering what else is out there.
> >
> > Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
> > with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
> > I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
> > I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
> > found.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > --aryeh
> >
> > --
> > Aryeh Weiss
> > Faculty of Engineering
> > Bar Ilan University
> > Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
> >
> > Ph:  972-3-5317638
> > FAX: [phone]
> >
>

[Ochoa, Lorenzo F.]

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*****

Hello Aryeh,

I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with Micro-Manager: https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024 


Hope it helps,
Lorenzo

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aryeh Weiss
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:26 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: camera for fluorescence <$4000

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for under $4k.
It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the camera to see it.

I found a similar question on the list from 2014
https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4

but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am wondering what else is out there.

Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have found.

Thanks in advance
--aryeh

--
Aryeh Weiss
Faculty of Engineering
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900 Israel

Ph:  972-3-5317638
FAX: [phone]

[Rusty Nicovich]

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*****

We've used some of the cameras from Allied Vision for similar work.  It's
instructive to compare the actual sensor chips between different models and
makers as there are many fewer of these than there are camera makers.  The
interface and camera firmware do not make nearly as much of a difference in
the final image than which chip is chosen.

For example, the CoolSnap HQ2 from Photometrics uses the same chip as the
Allied Vision BigEye G-132.  Both are cooled.  The latter has a GigE
interface rather than Firewire and costs 2/3 as much (though a bit out of
your price range).

Some of the lower-end cameras are still quite good.  We have a Manta G-245
($~2k AUD) that may fit your criteria.

Rusty


On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Ochoa, Lorenzo F. <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hello Aryeh,
>
> I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS
> Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with
> Micro-Manager:
> https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024
>
>
> Hope it helps,
> Lorenzo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Aryeh Weiss
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:26 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: camera for fluorescence <$4000
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
> under $4k.
> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
> camera to see it.
>
> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
>
> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
>
> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
> wondering what else is out there.
>
> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
> with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
> found.
>
> Thanks in advance
> --aryeh
>
> --
> Aryeh Weiss
> Faculty of Engineering
> Bar Ilan University
> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>
> Ph:  972-3-5317638
> FAX: [phone]
>

[Aryeh Weiss]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Many thanks to the many people who already responded to my inquiry.

On 16/06/2016 11:51 PM, Armstrong, Brian wrote:
> Hi Aryeh, I think that you can get a good scientific camera for that much from Q Imaging. Thor Labs also has CCD cameras around this price point.
> I inherited 4 astronomy cameras and was very disappointed with them and ended up just giving them away
I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
cooled). I suspect that in Israel it will too expensive, but we are
checking that.
Thanks for the comment on the astronomy cameras.

On 17/06/2016 12:35 AM, Pedro Almada wrote:
>
> Hi Aryeh, have you had a look at the Hamamatsu flash 2.8?
>
This is an attractive option, but I am pretty sure it will be too
expensive (we will check). I know that the Flash 4.o costs around $9k in
Israel. What does it cost in your area?

On 17/06/2016 12:56 AM, Michael Giacomelli wrote:
> Point Grey periodically updates their evaluation of cost-effective sensors:
>
> https://www.ptgrey.com/camera-sensor-review
>
> The newly added IMX264/IMX265 series sensors obtain a read noise of about
> 2.3 electrons and an absolute sensitivity of about 4 photons.  sCMOS will
> do better (read noise of about 1 electron on the newest models).  From the
> brightness of your specimen you can get a rough idea how well that will
> work for you.

I have a Pt Grey Chamelian, but I found that I cannot easily use it with
Micromanager. It claims to run with IIDC (DC1394), and it does, sort of.
However, at least in my hands, it was difficult, and not all of the
modes worked in micromanager (although it worked ok with coriander ,
which is a program used for testing such things).

On 17/06/2016 2:01 AM, Ochoa, Lorenzo F. wrote:
> Hello Aryeh,
>
> I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with Micro-Manager: https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024
This looks interesting. The price is right, at the cost of being
uncooled (but cooling for exposures under a second may not be critical).
It is supposed to work with micromanager.

Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...

Again thanks to the many people who replied.

--aryeh





On 16/06/2016 10:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss wrote:

> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy
> for under $4k.
> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
> camera to see it.
>
> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4 
>
>
> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I
> am wondering what else is out there.
>
> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
> with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
> found.
>
> Thanks in advance
> --aryeh
>

--
Aryeh Weiss
Faculty of Engineering
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900 Israel

Ph:  972-3-5317638
FAX: [phone]

[Christian Soeller]

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*****

I can broadly second this. We tracked these cameras back to IDS (http://en.ids-imaging.com/) where we could get these for substantially less. They also offer other sensors over the ones available via Thorlabs, particularly the IMX264 seems promising, I think this sensor was mentioned below in another message.

Christian

> On 17/06/2016, at 12:01 am, Ochoa, Lorenzo F. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hello Aryeh,
>
> I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with Micro-Manager: https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024 
>
>
> Hope it helps,
> Lorenzo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aryeh Weiss
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 2:26 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: camera for fluorescence <$4000
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for under $4k.
> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the camera to see it.
>
> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
>
> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am wondering what else is out there.
>
> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have found.
>
> Thanks in advance
> --aryeh
>
> --
> Aryeh Weiss
> Faculty of Engineering
> Bar Ilan University
> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>
> Ph:  972-3-5317638
> FAX: [phone]

[Michael Giacomelli]

*****
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*****

>I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
cooled).

For what it's worth, the read noise on that camera is worse than many of
the inexpensive machine vision cameras Edmunds or Thorlabs sell.  Unless
you must have cooling, it may not be a great choice.

>Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...

I've seen these used a lot in medical labs for taking pictures of slides.
The main problem with a dSLR (besides the software interface) is that the
sensor form factor is usually very large.  For example, that R1 you linked
above uses a Sony CCD sensor with an 11 mm diagonal, whereas a typical dSLR
sensor format is 25-30 mm diagonal.  To maintain the same field of view you
would either have to change the tube lens or get a ~3:1 expansion
telescope.  For comparable performance it usually makes more sense to just
buy a camera with the right sensor size.

(My apologies for sending this message twice)

Mike

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:07 AM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Many thanks to the many people who already responded to my inquiry.
>
> On 16/06/2016 11:51 PM, Armstrong, Brian wrote:
>
>> Hi Aryeh, I think that you can get a good scientific camera for that much
>> from Q Imaging. Thor Labs also has CCD cameras around this price point.
>> I inherited 4 astronomy cameras and was very disappointed with them and
>> ended up just giving them away
>>
> I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
> cooled). I suspect that in Israel it will too expensive, but we are
> checking that.
> Thanks for the comment on the astronomy cameras.
>
> On 17/06/2016 12:35 AM, Pedro Almada wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Aryeh, have you had a look at the Hamamatsu flash 2.8?
>>
>> This is an attractive option, but I am pretty sure it will be too
> expensive (we will check). I know that the Flash 4.o costs around $9k in
> Israel. What does it cost in your area?
>
> On 17/06/2016 12:56 AM, Michael Giacomelli wrote:
>
>> Point Grey periodically updates their evaluation of cost-effective
>> sensors:
>>
>> https://www.ptgrey.com/camera-sensor-review
>>
>> The newly added IMX264/IMX265 series sensors obtain a read noise of about
>> 2.3 electrons and an absolute sensitivity of about 4 photons.  sCMOS will
>> do better (read noise of about 1 electron on the newest models).  From the
>> brightness of your specimen you can get a rough idea how well that will
>> work for you.
>>
>
> I have a Pt Grey Chamelian, but I found that I cannot easily use it with
> Micromanager. It claims to run with IIDC (DC1394), and it does, sort of.
> However, at least in my hands, it was difficult, and not all of the modes
> worked in micromanager (although it worked ok with coriander , which is a
> program used for testing such things).
>
> On 17/06/2016 2:01 AM, Ochoa, Lorenzo F. wrote:
>
>> Hello Aryeh,
>>
>> I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS
>> Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with
>> Micro-Manager:
>> https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024
>>
> This looks interesting. The price is right, at the cost of being uncooled
> (but cooling for exposures under a second may not be critical). It is
> supposed to work with micromanager.
>
> Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
> color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...
>
> Again thanks to the many people who replied.
>
> --aryeh
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 16/06/2016 10:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss wrote:
>
>> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
>> under $4k.
>> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
>> camera to see it.
>>
>> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
>>
>> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
>>
>> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
>> wondering what else is out there.
>>
>> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
>> with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
>> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
>> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
>> found.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>> --aryeh
>>
>>
>
> --
> Aryeh Weiss
> Faculty of Engineering
> Bar Ilan University
> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>
> Ph:  972-3-5317638
> FAX: [phone]
>

[Aryeh Weiss]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
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*****

Thank you for your reply.

On 17/06/2016 7:10 PM, Michael Giacomelli wrote:
>> I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
> cooled).
>
> For what it's worth, the read noise on that camera is worse than many of
> the inexpensive machine vision cameras Edmunds or Thorlabs sell.  Unless
> you must have cooling, it may not be a great choice.
The R1 spec sheet (
www.qimaging.com/products/datasheets/Retiga-R1-Datasheet.pdf ) claims 7
electrons for the read noise.
I have not been able to find the read noise specification for the
machine vision cameras.
Do you have that information, or is there a different parameter from
which RMS read noise can be derived?

>> Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
> color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...
>
> I've seen these used a lot in medical labs for taking pictures of slides.
> The main problem with a dSLR (besides the software interface) is that the
> sensor form factor is usually very large.  For example, that R1 you linked
> above uses a Sony CCD sensor with an 11 mm diagonal, whereas a typical dSLR
> sensor format is 25-30 mm diagonal.  To maintain the same field of view you
> would either have to change the tube lens or get a ~3:1 expansion
> telescope.  For comparable performance it usually makes more sense to just
> buy a camera with the right sensor size.
>

I was thinking  of dslr cameras with aps-c sensors (which cost much less
than full frame dslr),
but even then you are correct that a zoom will be needed to  fill the
sensor.
However, such adapters are available for under $1000, and the cameras
themselves are under $500.
Nikon makes  2.5x F-mount adapter for their DS-Qi2 (which uses a full
frame sensor) which costs about 450 Euro.
So if the dslr has sufficient  sensitivity, it can be worth it.

Best regards
--aryeh

>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:07 AM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
>> *****
>>
>> Many thanks to the many people who already responded to my inquiry.
>>
>> On 16/06/2016 11:51 PM, Armstrong, Brian wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Aryeh, I think that you can get a good scientific camera for that much
>>> from Q Imaging. Thor Labs also has CCD cameras around this price point.
>>> I inherited 4 astronomy cameras and was very disappointed with them and
>>> ended up just giving them away
>>>
>> I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
>> cooled). I suspect that in Israel it will too expensive, but we are
>> checking that.
>> Thanks for the comment on the astronomy cameras.
>>
>> On 17/06/2016 12:35 AM, Pedro Almada wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Aryeh, have you had a look at the Hamamatsu flash 2.8?
>>>
>>> This is an attractive option, but I am pretty sure it will be too
>> expensive (we will check). I know that the Flash 4.o costs around $9k in
>> Israel. What does it cost in your area?
>>
>> On 17/06/2016 12:56 AM, Michael Giacomelli wrote:
>>
>>> Point Grey periodically updates their evaluation of cost-effective
>>> sensors:
>>>
>>> https://www.ptgrey.com/camera-sensor-review
>>>
>>> The newly added IMX264/IMX265 series sensors obtain a read noise of about
>>> 2.3 electrons and an absolute sensitivity of about 4 photons.  sCMOS will
>>> do better (read noise of about 1 electron on the newest models).  From the
>>> brightness of your specimen you can get a rough idea how well that will
>>> work for you.
>>>
>> I have a Pt Grey Chamelian, but I found that I cannot easily use it with
>> Micromanager. It claims to run with IIDC (DC1394), and it does, sort of.
>> However, at least in my hands, it was difficult, and not all of the modes
>> worked in micromanager (although it worked ok with coriander , which is a
>> program used for testing such things).
>>
>> On 17/06/2016 2:01 AM, Ochoa, Lorenzo F. wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Aryeh,
>>>
>>> I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS
>>> Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with
>>> Micro-Manager:
>>> https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024
>>>
>> This looks interesting. The price is right, at the cost of being uncooled
>> (but cooling for exposures under a second may not be critical). It is
>> supposed to work with micromanager.
>>
>> Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
>> color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...
>>
>> Again thanks to the many people who replied.
>>
>> --aryeh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16/06/2016 10:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss wrote:
>>
>>> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
>>> under $4k.
>>> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
>>> camera to see it.
>>>
>>> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
>>>
>>> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
>>>
>>> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
>>> wondering what else is out there.
>>>
>>> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
>>> with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
>>> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
>>> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
>>> found.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>> --aryeh
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Aryeh Weiss
>> Faculty of Engineering
>> Bar Ilan University
>> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>>
>> Ph:  972-3-5317638
>> FAX: [phone]
>>

--
Aryeh Weiss
Faculty of Engineering
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900 Israel

Ph:  972-3-5317638
FAX: [phone]

[Michael Giacomelli]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

> Do you have that information, or is there a different parameter from
which RMS read noise can be derived?

Yes, see the link in my first message.

>  However, such adapters are available for under $1000, and the cameras
themselves are under $500.

For what it's worth Edmunds only wants $1100 for PG camera with < 2.5 e
read noise.  I suspect the problem with dSLRs is that most are designed
around large sensors and apertures, and so photon efficiency is not as high
a priority as it is for fluorescence imaging.

Mike

On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 12:31 AM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you for your reply.
>
> On 17/06/2016 7:10 PM, Michael Giacomelli wrote:
>
>> I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
>>>
>> cooled).
>>
>> For what it's worth, the read noise on that camera is worse than many of
>> the inexpensive machine vision cameras Edmunds or Thorlabs sell.  Unless
>> you must have cooling, it may not be a great choice.
>>
> The R1 spec sheet (
> www.qimaging.com/products/datasheets/Retiga-R1-Datasheet.pdf ) claims 7
> electrons for the read noise.
> I have not been able to find the read noise specification for the machine
> vision cameras.
> Do you have that information, or is there a different parameter from which
> RMS read noise can be derived?
>
> Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
>>>
>> color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...
>>
>> I've seen these used a lot in medical labs for taking pictures of slides.
>> The main problem with a dSLR (besides the software interface) is that the
>> sensor form factor is usually very large.  For example, that R1 you linked
>> above uses a Sony CCD sensor with an 11 mm diagonal, whereas a typical
>> dSLR
>> sensor format is 25-30 mm diagonal.  To maintain the same field of view
>> you
>> would either have to change the tube lens or get a ~3:1 expansion
>> telescope.  For comparable performance it usually makes more sense to just
>> buy a camera with the right sensor size.
>>
>> I was thinking  of dslr cameras with aps-c sensors (which cost much less
> than full frame dslr),
> but even then you are correct that a zoom will be needed to  fill the
> sensor.
> However, such adapters are available for under $1000, and the cameras
> themselves are under $500.
> Nikon makes  2.5x F-mount adapter for their DS-Qi2 (which uses a full
> frame sensor) which costs about 450 Euro.
> So if the dslr has sufficient  sensitivity, it can be worth it.
>
> Best regards
> --aryeh
>
>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:07 AM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> *****
>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>>> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your
>>> posting.
>>> *****
>>>
>>> Many thanks to the many people who already responded to my inquiry.
>>>
>>> On 16/06/2016 11:51 PM, Armstrong, Brian wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Aryeh, I think that you can get a good scientific camera for that much
>>>> from Q Imaging. Thor Labs also has CCD cameras around this price point.
>>>> I inherited 4 astronomy cameras and was very disappointed with them and
>>>> ended up just giving them away
>>>>
>>>> I also heard off-list from Q-Imaging, who suggested their R1 (1.4MP CCD,
>>> cooled). I suspect that in Israel it will too expensive, but we are
>>> checking that.
>>> Thanks for the comment on the astronomy cameras.
>>>
>>> On 17/06/2016 12:35 AM, Pedro Almada wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Aryeh, have you had a look at the Hamamatsu flash 2.8?
>>>>
>>>> This is an attractive option, but I am pretty sure it will be too
>>>>
>>> expensive (we will check). I know that the Flash 4.o costs around $9k in
>>> Israel. What does it cost in your area?
>>>
>>> On 17/06/2016 12:56 AM, Michael Giacomelli wrote:
>>>
>>> Point Grey periodically updates their evaluation of cost-effective
>>>> sensors:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ptgrey.com/camera-sensor-review
>>>>
>>>> The newly added IMX264/IMX265 series sensors obtain a read noise of
>>>> about
>>>> 2.3 electrons and an absolute sensitivity of about 4 photons.  sCMOS
>>>> will
>>>> do better (read noise of about 1 electron on the newest models).  From
>>>> the
>>>> brightness of your specimen you can get a rough idea how well that will
>>>> work for you.
>>>>
>>>> I have a Pt Grey Chamelian, but I found that I cannot easily use it with
>>> Micromanager. It claims to run with IIDC (DC1394), and it does, sort of.
>>> However, at least in my hands, it was difficult, and not all of the modes
>>> worked in micromanager (although it worked ok with coriander , which is a
>>> program used for testing such things).
>>>
>>> On 17/06/2016 2:01 AM, Ochoa, Lorenzo F. wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Aryeh,
>>>>
>>>> I've had good results from the Thorlabs High Sensitivity USB 3.0 CMOS
>>>> Cameras. They are relatively cheap ($1.5K) and are compatible with
>>>> Micro-Manager:
>>>> https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=4024
>>>>
>>>> This looks interesting. The price is right, at the cost of being
>>> uncooled
>>> (but cooling for exposures under a second may not be critical). It is
>>> supposed to work with micromanager.
>>>
>>> Is anybody using DSLR cameras for fluorescence imaging?  I know they are
>>> color and probably less sensitive, but I still wonder...
>>>
>>> Again thanks to the many people who replied.
>>>
>>> --aryeh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/06/2016 10:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss wrote:
>>>
>>> I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for
>>>> under $4k.
>>>> It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the
>>>> camera to see it.
>>>>
>>>> I found a similar question on the list from 2014
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4
>>>>
>>>> but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am
>>>> wondering what else is out there.
>>>>
>>>> Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience
>>>> with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
>>>> I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with
>>>> micro-manager.
>>>> I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have
>>>> found.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>> --aryeh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Aryeh Weiss
>>> Faculty of Engineering
>>> Bar Ilan University
>>> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>>>
>>> Ph:  972-3-5317638
>>> FAX: [phone]
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Aryeh Weiss
> Faculty of Engineering
> Bar Ilan University
> Ramat Gan 52900 Israel
>
> Ph:  972-3-5317638
> FAX: [phone]
>
>

[Knecht, David]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I just bought a bunch of Lumenera Infinity 3S CCD cameras in that price range for my lab class.  They perform very well for normal fluorescence applications but I doubt any camera in that price range is going to do single molecule.  I compared the Lumenera to several others (Thorlabs, QImaging, TIS) and it was the best price/performance performer that worked well with Micro-Manager.  I tried one Lumenera CMOS camera which was not nearly as good.  Dave

On Jun 16, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Aryeh Weiss <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I was asked if I can recommend a camera for fluorescence microscopy for under $4k.
It is not single molecule, but if they can see it, they would like the camera to see it.

I found a similar question on the list from 2014
https://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1403&L=confocalmicroscopy&P=R18770&1=confocalmicroscopy&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4

but this is a moving target, and my price constraint is higher, so I am wondering what else is out there.

Are there any sCMOS  cameras that qualify? Does anyone have experience with the less known brands (eg cameras geared toward amateur astronomy)?
I have a strong preference for cameras that will work with micro-manager.
I would appreciate finding out what solutions people on the list have found.

Thanks in advance
--aryeh

--
Aryeh Weiss
Faculty of Engineering
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900 Israel

Ph:  972-3-5317638
FAX: [phone]

Dr. David Knecht
Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology
Core Microscopy Facility Director
University of Connecticut
91 N. Eagleville Rd.
Storrs, CT 06269
860-486-2200