which multiline gas laser should I buy

[Yuval Ebenstein]

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Hello,
I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
combiner.
I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
about the robustness of the Coherent model.
Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look for?
Many thanks
Yuval

--
--------------------------------------
Yuval Ebenstein
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]

[David Baddeley]

you should take a bit of time to convince yourself that it w
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Hi Yuval,

you should take a bit of time to convince yourself that it will really be
cheaper, over the lifetime of your instrument. Ar/Kr lasers are notorious for
having relatively short service lifetimes before the tube needs replacing (most
of the cost of a new laser). I think the Ar/Kr on our confocal in needed to be
replaced 2 or 3 times during the course of my doctorate. Solid state lasers are
getting pretty cheap these days, and are going to be much more reliable. The
only situation where I'd contemplate a gas laser (and particularly an Ar/Kr) now
was if I needed a very long coherence length for interferometry.

cheers,
David


----- Original Message ----
From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 12:28:42 PM
Subject: which multiline gas laser should I buy

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Hello,
I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
combiner.
I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation line I can
think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum from Coherent and
the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are quite similar on paper but
the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much about the robustness of the Coherent
model.
Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look for?
Many thanks
Yuval

-- --------------------------------------
Yuval Ebenstein
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]

[Yuval Ebenstein]

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Hi David and Martin,
Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for
several thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
(150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super
expensive. Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set
and I just can't afford it.
Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
Yuval

On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:

> Deare Yuval--
>
> I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the
> time (1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they
> tend to die young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Martin
>
> On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> *****
>>
>> Hello,
>> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
>> combiner.
>> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
>> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
>> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
>> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
>> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
>> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
>> for?
>> Many thanks
>> Yuval
>>
>
>
>

--
--------------------------------------
Yuval Ebenstein
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]

[David Baddeley]

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I can't remember the exact model of Ar/Kr - it was the stock laser in a Leica
TCS NT and was air cooled. It was probably being used ~15-20 hrs/week so a bit
over 1000 hrs would be about right. We also had a couple of pure Ar and a pure
Kr large/medium frame lasers (Spectra Physics, Lexel), and these fared a lot
better although they still gave us a few headaches with tube replacements.

As to tips on prolonging tube life, the commonly accepted ones are:
- don't run at full power - I have heard that ~20% and below is pretty good for
longevity
- don't switch on and off more than you have to (ie leaving the laser running at
low power all day is better than turning it on for an hour or two 2-3 times a
day). Exactly where the turn on /runtime balance lies is the subject of much
debate.
- let laser cool properly before switching on again
- make sure you're cooling water setup is absolutely bombproof. Important things
to watch here are:
      - interruptions/ pressure variations (we think we lost a tube to a
water-hammer type effect)
      - calcification - if you've got hard water, you'll get a build up of
calcification in the tube - this stops it being cooled effectively, and, if the
calcification starts to flake, allows water to be trapped next to the tube and
boil (we definitely lost one tube this way). If you're stuck with hard water,
you can do a bit of preventative maintenance by rinsing the laser with a dilute
solution of a weak acid (eg. acetic) every 6 months to a year. This is however a
half solution at best as there are also metal parts in the cooling loop that you
don't want to corrode.
       - leaks - the required flow rates are such that any leak in the cooling
circuit will quickly flood your lab. Combined with 3 phase laser power supplies,
this is not a particularly comforting prospect.

In general solid state lasers are much less hassle, and a lot safer. I'm not
sure what the current prices are, but would guess that either of the lasers you
are looking at would probably set you back somewhere in the vicinity of $50-70k.
You should be able to get solid state lasers at the desired powers for much less
than that ($1-5k each at your powers, if you're a bit flexible with your
wavelengths. If you want to exactly match the Ar/Kr lines, in particular 488 and
514 you will need to fork out a little more). You might not be paying directly
for your power / cooling water, but gas lasers are also horribly inefficient -
the Innova 70 draws up to 25KW -> ~ $12K/year power and cooling costs
(calculated at 1000hrs/year, 20c/kwh[nz prices], cooling power at 1.5x
electrical[optimistic]). Maybe you can use this as a bargaining point to get
your institute to chip in a few extra dollars for a solid state solution.

cheers,
David


----- Original Message ----
From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 3:58:18 PM
Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy

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Hi David and Martin,
Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for several
thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
(150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super expensive.
Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set and I just can't
afford it.
Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
Yuval

On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:

> Deare Yuval--
>
> I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the time
>(1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they tend to die
>young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Martin
>
> On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> *****
>>
>> Hello,
>> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
>> combiner.
>> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
>> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
>> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
>> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
>> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
>> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
>> for?
>> Many thanks
>> Yuval
>>
>
>
>

-- --------------------------------------
Yuval Ebenstein
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]

[Emmanuel Gustin]

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Hi Yuval,

We had very good experience with Spectra-Physics Ar and Kr lasers, although I never used an Ar/Kr. In normal use, and if the operators don't mess with the cavity and mirrors, they can run for a long time without more than yearly maintenance. I think our biggest problem has been corrosion of the mechanical parts (for mirror alignment) in relatively high humidity environment.

For any high-powered gas laser, you need a lot of water cooling, and you should think about the cooling circuit. Open-loop circuits are simple but consume a lot of water, and add to the waste outflow of your laboratory -- we once exceeded our environmental permits because of that, and that it is clean water didn't matter. Closed-loop cooling circuits are better in most ways, but if your lab doesn't already have a suitable infrastructure they can be expensive to set up. We also found that flow regulation systems with a poor response time can cause temperature and power fluctuations on the laser. And try to have some link or signal that prevents people from leaving cold water running over a laser that has been switched off, or sooner or later you will find it in the morning with condensation dripping from the laser head and power supply...

Best Regards,

Emmanuel



--
 Emmanuel Gustin,    Tel. [phone],    e-mail: [hidden email]  

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yuval Ebenstein
Sent: woensdag 25 mei 2011 02:29
To: [hidden email]
Subject: which multiline gas laser should I buy

*****
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Hello,
I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
combiner.
I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
about the robustness of the Coherent model.
Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look for?
Many thanks
Yuval

--
--------------------------------------
Yuval Ebenstein
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]

[Csúcs Gábor]

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Dear Yuval,


Unfortunately I can't directly answer your question, whether you should
buy your laser from Coherent or SpectraPhysics. We have a SpectraPhysics
BeamLok 2080 Ar/Kr laser on our spinning disk and we just want to go the
opposite way - we are exchanging it to a solid state laser combiner.
Actually already now we are using a hybrid solution as the 568nm line of
the Ar/Kr laser seems to be notoriously dying after a very short period
(max 500-1000 h). So after using two lasers and refurbishing tubes 2x we
just decided to use the strong and stable lines of the Ar/Kr laser (mainly
the 488 and the 647) and for the green excitation we use a separate 561nm
laser. But soon we want to switch to the combiner solution.
As summary: I have no idea about the longevity of the Coherent laser, but
the above mentioned SpectraPhysiscs model was not our best investment (at
least for some very important lines).

Cheers    Gabor

>
>Hello,
>I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
>combiner.
>I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
>line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
>from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
>quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
>about the robustness of the Coherent model.
>Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
>for?
>Many thanks
>Yuval
>
>--
>--------------------------------------
>Yuval Ebenstein
>Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
>Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
>Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
>Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]

[Zac Arrac Atelaz]

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Some info on my laser:

We have a Melles Griot Argon Laser 150mW, for a Olympus confocal system where we are using the 458nm, 488nm and 515nm, the laser has been working steadily 8h from Monday trough Friday for more than 5 years, it has now +6000 hours working with no evident degradation on imaging quality, the power adjust dial on the power source is at it's lowest possible, and we are still using 1% of power (this in the Olympus confocal software) to make pictures of samples.

Important cares we have take:

Room temp max 23° with average of 20°Minimal on time 1 hourMinimal time between on /off state 1 hour

I hope this helps

Gabriel OH

> Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:20:14 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
> To: [hidden email]
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> I can't remember the exact model of Ar/Kr - it was the stock laser in a Leica
> TCS NT and was air cooled. It was probably being used ~15-20 hrs/week so a bit
> over 1000 hrs would be about right. We also had a couple of pure Ar and a pure
> Kr large/medium frame lasers (Spectra Physics, Lexel), and these fared a lot
> better although they still gave us a few headaches with tube replacements.
>
> As to tips on prolonging tube life, the commonly accepted ones are:
> - don't run at full power - I have heard that ~20% and below is pretty good for
> longevity
> - don't switch on and off more than you have to (ie leaving the laser running at
> low power all day is better than turning it on for an hour or two 2-3 times a
> day). Exactly where the turn on /runtime balance lies is the subject of much
> debate.
> - let laser cool properly before switching on again
> - make sure you're cooling water setup is absolutely bombproof. Important things
> to watch here are:
>       - interruptions/ pressure variations (we think we lost a tube to a
> water-hammer type effect)
>       - calcification - if you've got hard water, you'll get a build up of
> calcification in the tube - this stops it being cooled effectively, and, if the
> calcification starts to flake, allows water to be trapped next to the tube and
> boil (we definitely lost one tube this way). If you're stuck with hard water,
> you can do a bit of preventative maintenance by rinsing the laser with a dilute
> solution of a weak acid (eg. acetic) every 6 months to a year. This is however a
> half solution at best as there are also metal parts in the cooling loop that you
> don't want to corrode.
>        - leaks - the required flow rates are such that any leak in the cooling
> circuit will quickly flood your lab. Combined with 3 phase laser power supplies,
> this is not a particularly comforting prospect.
>
> In general solid state lasers are much less hassle, and a lot safer. I'm not
> sure what the current prices are, but would guess that either of the lasers you
> are looking at would probably set you back somewhere in the vicinity of $50-70k.
> You should be able to get solid state lasers at the desired powers for much less
> than that ($1-5k each at your powers, if you're a bit flexible with your
> wavelengths. If you want to exactly match the Ar/Kr lines, in particular 488 and
> 514 you will need to fork out a little more). You might not be paying directly
> for your power / cooling water, but gas lasers are also horribly inefficient -
> the Innova 70 draws up to 25KW -> ~ $12K/year power and cooling costs
> (calculated at 1000hrs/year, 20c/kwh[nz prices], cooling power at 1.5x
> electrical[optimistic]). Maybe you can use this as a bargaining point to get
> your institute to chip in a few extra dollars for a solid state solution.
>
> cheers,
> David
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 3:58:18 PM
> Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> Hi David and Martin,
> Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
> I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for several
> thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
> I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
> (150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super expensive.
> Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set and I just can't
> afford it.
> Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
> Yuval
>
> On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:
> > Deare Yuval--
> >
> > I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the time
> >(1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they tend to die
> >young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
> >> *****
> >> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> >> *****
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
> >> combiner.
> >> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
> >> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
> >> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
> >> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
> >> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
> >> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
> >> for?
> >> Many thanks
> >> Yuval
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- --------------------------------------
> Yuval Ebenstein
> Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
> Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
> Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
> Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]
>

     

[Lloyd Donaldson]

Hi Yuval

We had used Melles Griot Omnichrome Kr/Ar lasers on a Leica TCS/NT. We averaged 1 per year over the 14 years or so but some failed within months of installation. Typically the 647 line fades within 12 months. This laser is air cooled. A surge protected power supply is essential with batteries to run the fans to cool the laser if the power fails. Laser failures were typically at turn off with a loud bang so a bit startling for users. This technology is obsolete. The additional expense of solid state will be offset by longer service times and by the time you need to replace it the cost will have declined considerably. However you could consider an Ar laser - I understand the typical lifetime is 10,000 hours by which time a solid state replacement should be very affordable.

Regards

Dr Lloyd Donaldson

Senior Scientist, Project Leader - Microscopy/Wood Identification
Scion - Next Generation Biomaterials
Private Bag 3020, Rotorua
New Zealand 3010

Ph: 64 7 343 5581




-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Baddeley
Sent: Wednesday, 25 May 2011 6:20 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

I can't remember the exact model of Ar/Kr - it was the stock laser in a Leica
TCS NT and was air cooled. It was probably being used ~15-20 hrs/week so a bit
over 1000 hrs would be about right. We also had a couple of pure Ar and a pure
Kr large/medium frame lasers (Spectra Physics, Lexel), and these fared a lot
better although they still gave us a few headaches with tube replacements.

As to tips on prolonging tube life, the commonly accepted ones are:
- don't run at full power - I have heard that ~20% and below is pretty good for
longevity
- don't switch on and off more than you have to (ie leaving the laser running at
low power all day is better than turning it on for an hour or two 2-3 times a
day). Exactly where the turn on /runtime balance lies is the subject of much
debate.
- let laser cool properly before switching on again
- make sure you're cooling water setup is absolutely bombproof. Important things
to watch here are:
      - interruptions/ pressure variations (we think we lost a tube to a
water-hammer type effect)
      - calcification - if you've got hard water, you'll get a build up of
calcification in the tube - this stops it being cooled effectively, and, if the
calcification starts to flake, allows water to be trapped next to the tube and
boil (we definitely lost one tube this way). If you're stuck with hard water,
you can do a bit of preventative maintenance by rinsing the laser with a dilute
solution of a weak acid (eg. acetic) every 6 months to a year. This is however a
half solution at best as there are also metal parts in the cooling loop that you
don't want to corrode.
       - leaks - the required flow rates are such that any leak in the cooling
circuit will quickly flood your lab. Combined with 3 phase laser power supplies,
this is not a particularly comforting prospect.

In general solid state lasers are much less hassle, and a lot safer. I'm not
sure what the current prices are, but would guess that either of the lasers you
are looking at would probably set you back somewhere in the vicinity of $50-70k.
You should be able to get solid state lasers at the desired powers for much less
than that ($1-5k each at your powers, if you're a bit flexible with your
wavelengths. If you want to exactly match the Ar/Kr lines, in particular 488 and
514 you will need to fork out a little more). You might not be paying directly
for your power / cooling water, but gas lasers are also horribly inefficient -
the Innova 70 draws up to 25KW -> ~ $12K/year power and cooling costs
(calculated at 1000hrs/year, 20c/kwh[nz prices], cooling power at 1.5x
electrical[optimistic]). Maybe you can use this as a bargaining point to get
your institute to chip in a few extra dollars for a solid state solution.

cheers,
David


----- Original Message ----
From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 3:58:18 PM
Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

Hi David and Martin,
Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for several
thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
(150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super expensive.
Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set and I just can't
afford it.
Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
Yuval

On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:

> Deare Yuval--
>
> I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the time
>(1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they tend to die
>young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Martin
>
> On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
>> *****
>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>> *****
>>
>> Hello,
>> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
>> combiner.
>> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
>> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
>> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
>> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
>> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
>> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
>> for?
>> Many thanks
>> Yuval
>>
>
>
>

-- --------------------------------------
Yuval Ebenstein
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]




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[Craig Brideau]

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We have a Melles Griot Argon Ion emitting 457, 476, 488 and 514.  It is
backed up with a 405 and 638 diode laser and a 561 diode-pumped solid state.
 Right now your best bet is probably a combination of a regular Argon:Ion
and any diode lines to cover what the Argon can't provide.  By the time the
Argon dies (should last for years) then diode lasers should be much cheaper.

Craig


On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Lloyd Donaldson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Yuval
>
> We had used Melles Griot Omnichrome Kr/Ar lasers on a Leica TCS/NT. We
> averaged 1 per year over the 14 years or so but some failed within months of
> installation. Typically the 647 line fades within 12 months. This laser is
> air cooled. A surge protected power supply is essential with batteries to
> run the fans to cool the laser if the power fails. Laser failures were
> typically at turn off with a loud bang so a bit startling for users. This
> technology is obsolete. The additional expense of solid state will be offset
> by longer service times and by the time you need to replace it the cost will
> have declined considerably. However you could consider an Ar laser - I
> understand the typical lifetime is 10,000 hours by which time a solid state
> replacement should be very affordable.
>
> Regards
>
> Dr Lloyd Donaldson
>
> Senior Scientist, Project Leader - Microscopy/Wood Identification
> Scion - Next Generation Biomaterials
> Private Bag 3020, Rotorua
> New Zealand 3010
>
> Ph: 64 7 343 5581
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of David Baddeley
> Sent: Wednesday, 25 May 2011 6:20 p.m.
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> I can't remember the exact model of Ar/Kr - it was the stock laser in a
> Leica
> TCS NT and was air cooled. It was probably being used ~15-20 hrs/week so a
> bit
> over 1000 hrs would be about right. We also had a couple of pure Ar and a
> pure
> Kr large/medium frame lasers (Spectra Physics, Lexel), and these fared a
> lot
> better although they still gave us a few headaches with tube replacements.
>
> As to tips on prolonging tube life, the commonly accepted ones are:
> - don't run at full power - I have heard that ~20% and below is pretty good
> for
> longevity
> - don't switch on and off more than you have to (ie leaving the laser
> running at
> low power all day is better than turning it on for an hour or two 2-3 times
> a
> day). Exactly where the turn on /runtime balance lies is the subject of
> much
> debate.
> - let laser cool properly before switching on again
> - make sure you're cooling water setup is absolutely bombproof. Important
> things
> to watch here are:
>      - interruptions/ pressure variations (we think we lost a tube to a
> water-hammer type effect)
>      - calcification - if you've got hard water, you'll get a build up of
> calcification in the tube - this stops it being cooled effectively, and, if
> the
> calcification starts to flake, allows water to be trapped next to the tube
> and
> boil (we definitely lost one tube this way). If you're stuck with hard
> water,
> you can do a bit of preventative maintenance by rinsing the laser with a
> dilute
> solution of a weak acid (eg. acetic) every 6 months to a year. This is
> however a
> half solution at best as there are also metal parts in the cooling loop
> that you
> don't want to corrode.
>       - leaks - the required flow rates are such that any leak in the
> cooling
> circuit will quickly flood your lab. Combined with 3 phase laser power
> supplies,
> this is not a particularly comforting prospect.
>
> In general solid state lasers are much less hassle, and a lot safer. I'm
> not
> sure what the current prices are, but would guess that either of the lasers
> you
> are looking at would probably set you back somewhere in the vicinity of
> $50-70k.
> You should be able to get solid state lasers at the desired powers for much
> less
> than that ($1-5k each at your powers, if you're a bit flexible with your
> wavelengths. If you want to exactly match the Ar/Kr lines, in particular
> 488 and
> 514 you will need to fork out a little more). You might not be paying
> directly
> for your power / cooling water, but gas lasers are also horribly
> inefficient -
> the Innova 70 draws up to 25KW -> ~ $12K/year power and cooling costs
> (calculated at 1000hrs/year, 20c/kwh[nz prices], cooling power at 1.5x
> electrical[optimistic]). Maybe you can use this as a bargaining point to
> get
> your institute to chip in a few extra dollars for a solid state solution.
>
> cheers,
> David
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 3:58:18 PM
> Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> Hi David and Martin,
> Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
> I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for
> several
> thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
> I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
> (150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super expensive.
> Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set and I just
> can't
> afford it.
> Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
> Yuval
>
> On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:
> > Deare Yuval--
> >
> > I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the
> time
> >(1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they tend to
> die
> >young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
> >> *****
> >> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> >> *****
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
> >> combiner.
> >> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
> >> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
> >> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
> >> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
> >> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
> >> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
> >> for?
> >> Many thanks
> >> Yuval
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- --------------------------------------
> Yuval Ebenstein
> Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
> Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
> Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
> Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]
>
>
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is
> confidential or subject to copyright. If you receive this e-mail in error,
> please delete it.
> Scion does not accept responsibility for anything in this e-mail which is
> not provided in the  course of Scion’s usual business or for any computer
> virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from this e-mail.
>

[George Peeters-2]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

Hi Yuval:

I agree that Argon gas lasers (458, 488, 514 nm lines) are by far the least expensive route and least costly to maintain. As mentioned , You add in solid state lasers for 405, 442, 561, 640 nm lines as needed. All but the 405 nm can be selected and controlled by an AOTF. We bypass the AOTF with the 405 laser and add it in prior to the FO.  Krypton-Argon mixed gas lasers are short lived with the red line fading early on.

To prolong the multi-line Argon lasers life span you do need to pay attention to the Current: power ratio and try to run it at as low a currrent as possible. Heat, room noise and size are the down side to any gas laser, but an Argon will last 4 to 7 years in my experience and are very inexpensive to retube.

We use Dynamic Laser in Salt Lake (contact Amir Behjani <[hidden email]> )to repair all Argon and Krypton-Argon lasers that we run across (not only their own laser models but others as well). New tubes are done usually within the same week and costs are quite low.

Best regards,
George

George Peeters, M.D., M.S.
Pres. Solamere Technology Group inc.
1427 Perry Ave
Salt Lake City, UT.  84103
office 801 322-2645
cell    801 232-6911



On May 25, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Lloyd Donaldson wrote:

> Hi Yuval
>
> We had used Melles Griot Omnichrome Kr/Ar lasers on a Leica TCS/NT. We averaged 1 per year over the 14 years or so but some failed within months of installation. Typically the 647 line fades within 12 months. This laser is air cooled. A surge protected power supply is essential with batteries to run the fans to cool the laser if the power fails. Laser failures were typically at turn off with a loud bang so a bit startling for users. This technology is obsolete. The additional expense of solid state will be offset by longer service times and by the time you need to replace it the cost will have declined considerably. However you could consider an Ar laser - I understand the typical lifetime is 10,000 hours by which time a solid state replacement should be very affordable.
>
> Regards
>
> Dr Lloyd Donaldson
>
> Senior Scientist, Project Leader - Microscopy/Wood Identification
> Scion - Next Generation Biomaterials
> Private Bag 3020, Rotorua
> New Zealand 3010
>
> Ph: 64 7 343 5581
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Baddeley
> Sent: Wednesday, 25 May 2011 6:20 p.m.
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> I can't remember the exact model of Ar/Kr - it was the stock laser in a Leica
> TCS NT and was air cooled. It was probably being used ~15-20 hrs/week so a bit
> over 1000 hrs would be about right. We also had a couple of pure Ar and a pure
> Kr large/medium frame lasers (Spectra Physics, Lexel), and these fared a lot
> better although they still gave us a few headaches with tube replacements.
>
> As to tips on prolonging tube life, the commonly accepted ones are:
> - don't run at full power - I have heard that ~20% and below is pretty good for
> longevity
> - don't switch on and off more than you have to (ie leaving the laser running at
> low power all day is better than turning it on for an hour or two 2-3 times a
> day). Exactly where the turn on /runtime balance lies is the subject of much
> debate.
> - let laser cool properly before switching on again
> - make sure you're cooling water setup is absolutely bombproof. Important things
> to watch here are:
>     - interruptions/ pressure variations (we think we lost a tube to a
> water-hammer type effect)
>     - calcification - if you've got hard water, you'll get a build up of
> calcification in the tube - this stops it being cooled effectively, and, if the
> calcification starts to flake, allows water to be trapped next to the tube and
> boil (we definitely lost one tube this way). If you're stuck with hard water,
> you can do a bit of preventative maintenance by rinsing the laser with a dilute
> solution of a weak acid (eg. acetic) every 6 months to a year. This is however a
> half solution at best as there are also metal parts in the cooling loop that you
> don't want to corrode.
>      - leaks - the required flow rates are such that any leak in the cooling
> circuit will quickly flood your lab. Combined with 3 phase laser power supplies,
> this is not a particularly comforting prospect.
>
> In general solid state lasers are much less hassle, and a lot safer. I'm not
> sure what the current prices are, but would guess that either of the lasers you
> are looking at would probably set you back somewhere in the vicinity of $50-70k.
> You should be able to get solid state lasers at the desired powers for much less
> than that ($1-5k each at your powers, if you're a bit flexible with your
> wavelengths. If you want to exactly match the Ar/Kr lines, in particular 488 and
> 514 you will need to fork out a little more). You might not be paying directly
> for your power / cooling water, but gas lasers are also horribly inefficient -
> the Innova 70 draws up to 25KW -> ~ $12K/year power and cooling costs
> (calculated at 1000hrs/year, 20c/kwh[nz prices], cooling power at 1.5x
> electrical[optimistic]). Maybe you can use this as a bargaining point to get
> your institute to chip in a few extra dollars for a solid state solution.
>
> cheers,
> David
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 3:58:18 PM
> Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> *****
>
> Hi David and Martin,
> Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
> I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for several
> thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
> I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
> (150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super expensive.
> Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set and I just can't
> afford it.
> Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
> Yuval
>
> On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:
>> Deare Yuval--
>>
>> I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the time
>> (1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they tend to die
>> young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
>>> *****
>>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
>>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
>>> *****
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state laser
>>> combiner.
>>> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
>>> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
>>> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
>>> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
>>> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
>>> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
>>> for?
>>> Many thanks
>>> Yuval
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- --------------------------------------
> Yuval Ebenstein
> Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
> Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
> Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
> Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]
>
>
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential or subject to copyright. If you receive this e-mail in error, please delete it.
> Scion does not accept responsibility for anything in this e-mail which is not provided in the  course of Scion’s usual business or for any computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from this e-mail.

[Craig Brideau]

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
*****

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:11 PM, George Peeters
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> I agree that Argon gas lasers (458, 488, 514 nm lines) are by far the least
> expensive route and least costly to maintain. As mentioned , You add in
> solid state lasers for 405, 442, 561, 640 nm lines as needed. All but the
> 405 nm can be selected and controlled by an AOTF. We bypass the AOTF with
> the 405 laser and add it in prior to the FO.  Krypton-Argon mixed gas lasers
> are short lived with the red line fading early on.
>

As an aside, most of the direct-diode lasers (405, some 638, and now
520-530) can be fast power controlled via current, so an AOTF is not
required for them.


> To prolong the multi-line Argon lasers life span you do need to pay
> attention to the Current: power ratio and try to run it at as low a currrent
> as possible. Heat, room noise and size are the down side to any gas laser,
> but an Argon will last 4 to 7 years in my experience and are very
> inexpensive to retube.
>

We use ours in 'standby' mode all the time.  I think we've only ever
switched it to 'run' mode three times, for some photo-bleaching experiments!


>
> We use Dynamic Laser in Salt Lake (contact Amir Behjani <
> [hidden email]> )to repair all Argon and Krypton-Argon lasers that
> we run across (not only their own laser models but others as well). New
> tubes are done usually within the same week and costs are quite low.
>

Thanks for the information!  I will keep that in mind if my own Argon dies
(knock on wood!).

Craig

>
> Best regards,
> George
>
> George Peeters, M.D., M.S.
> Pres. Solamere Technology Group inc.
> 1427 Perry Ave
> Salt Lake City, UT.  84103
> office 801 322-2645
> cell    801 232-6911
>
>
>
> On May 25, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Lloyd Donaldson wrote:
>
> > Hi Yuval
> >
> > We had used Melles Griot Omnichrome Kr/Ar lasers on a Leica TCS/NT. We
> averaged 1 per year over the 14 years or so but some failed within months of
> installation. Typically the 647 line fades within 12 months. This laser is
> air cooled. A surge protected power supply is essential with batteries to
> run the fans to cool the laser if the power fails. Laser failures were
> typically at turn off with a loud bang so a bit startling for users. This
> technology is obsolete. The additional expense of solid state will be offset
> by longer service times and by the time you need to replace it the cost will
> have declined considerably. However you could consider an Ar laser - I
> understand the typical lifetime is 10,000 hours by which time a solid state
> replacement should be very affordable.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Dr Lloyd Donaldson
> >
> > Senior Scientist, Project Leader - Microscopy/Wood Identification
> > Scion - Next Generation Biomaterials
> > Private Bag 3020, Rotorua
> > New Zealand 3010
> >
> > Ph: 64 7 343 5581
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of David Baddeley
> > Sent: Wednesday, 25 May 2011 6:20 p.m.
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > *****
> >
> > I can't remember the exact model of Ar/Kr - it was the stock laser in a
> Leica
> > TCS NT and was air cooled. It was probably being used ~15-20 hrs/week so
> a bit
> > over 1000 hrs would be about right. We also had a couple of pure Ar and a
> pure
> > Kr large/medium frame lasers (Spectra Physics, Lexel), and these fared a
> lot
> > better although they still gave us a few headaches with tube
> replacements.
> >
> > As to tips on prolonging tube life, the commonly accepted ones are:
> > - don't run at full power - I have heard that ~20% and below is pretty
> good for
> > longevity
> > - don't switch on and off more than you have to (ie leaving the laser
> running at
> > low power all day is better than turning it on for an hour or two 2-3
> times a
> > day). Exactly where the turn on /runtime balance lies is the subject of
> much
> > debate.
> > - let laser cool properly before switching on again
> > - make sure you're cooling water setup is absolutely bombproof. Important
> things
> > to watch here are:
> >     - interruptions/ pressure variations (we think we lost a tube to a
> > water-hammer type effect)
> >     - calcification - if you've got hard water, you'll get a build up of
> > calcification in the tube - this stops it being cooled effectively, and,
> if the
> > calcification starts to flake, allows water to be trapped next to the
> tube and
> > boil (we definitely lost one tube this way). If you're stuck with hard
> water,
> > you can do a bit of preventative maintenance by rinsing the laser with a
> dilute
> > solution of a weak acid (eg. acetic) every 6 months to a year. This is
> however a
> > half solution at best as there are also metal parts in the cooling loop
> that you
> > don't want to corrode.
> >      - leaks - the required flow rates are such that any leak in the
> cooling
> > circuit will quickly flood your lab. Combined with 3 phase laser power
> supplies,
> > this is not a particularly comforting prospect.
> >
> > In general solid state lasers are much less hassle, and a lot safer. I'm
> not
> > sure what the current prices are, but would guess that either of the
> lasers you
> > are looking at would probably set you back somewhere in the vicinity of
> $50-70k.
> > You should be able to get solid state lasers at the desired powers for
> much less
> > than that ($1-5k each at your powers, if you're a bit flexible with your
> > wavelengths. If you want to exactly match the Ar/Kr lines, in particular
> 488 and
> > 514 you will need to fork out a little more). You might not be paying
> directly
> > for your power / cooling water, but gas lasers are also horribly
> inefficient -
> > the Innova 70 draws up to 25KW -> ~ $12K/year power and cooling costs
> > (calculated at 1000hrs/year, 20c/kwh[nz prices], cooling power at 1.5x
> > electrical[optimistic]). Maybe you can use this as a bargaining point to
> get
> > your institute to chip in a few extra dollars for a solid state solution.
> >
> > cheers,
> > David
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Yuval Ebenstein <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 3:58:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: which multiline gas laser should I buy
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> > *****
> >
> > Hi David and Martin,
> > Thanks for your comment. I'm curios to know which Ar/Kr you were using.
> > I know at least two Coherent heads that are running on the same tube for
> several
> > thousands of hours and for over 10 years.
> > I totally would prefer solid state but I need 4-5 lines with high power
> > (150-250mw) and the solid state at these intensities are super expensive.
> > Overall I will be paying about double for a solid state set and I just
> can't
> > afford it.
> > Would love to hear more and get tips for extending their life...
> > Yuval
> >
> > On 5/24/2011 8:21 PM, Martin Wessendorf wrote:
> >> Deare Yuval--
> >>
> >> I second David Baddeley's comments.  Kr/Ar's were a great idea at the
> time
> >> (1993) but are obsolete for exactly the reason he mentioned: they tend
> to die
> >> young.  We always figured on 1000 hours out of ours.
> >>
> >> Good luck!
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> On 5/24/2011 7:28 PM, Yuval Ebenstein wrote:
> >>> *****
> >>> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >>> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> >>> *****
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> I'm looking for a cheaper alternative for a high power solid-state
> laser
> >>> combiner.
> >>> I'm thinking of buying an Ar/Kr (which gives almost every excitation
> >>> line I can think of) and I can't decide between the Innova 70c-spectrum
> >>> from Coherent and the Stabilite 2018-RM from Spectra-physics. They are
> >>> quite similar on paper but the spectra one is cheaper. I heard much
> >>> about the robustness of the Coherent model.
> >>> Anyone has experience with one of these? Anything special I should look
> >>> for?
> >>> Many thanks
> >>> Yuval
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > -- --------------------------------------
> > Yuval Ebenstein
> > Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, UCLA
> > Young Hall-2002, 607 Charles E. Young Drive East
> > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1569
> > Ph: [phone]; Fax: [phone]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is
> confidential or subject to copyright. If you receive this e-mail in error,
> please delete it.
> > Scion does not accept responsibility for anything in this e-mail which is
> not provided in the  course of Scion’s usual business or for any computer
> virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from this e-mail.
>