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SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

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Mirco Martino

SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

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Hi all,

we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!

Nuno Moreno-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

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Hi Mirco

Honestly I see no reason to have so much memory and such a high spec graphics card for an acquisition computer. Regarding the HDs, I would keep the 2TB and add extra space non SSD. Then just automate data flow from the fast to the slow drive. 2TB extra for 6000$ is just too much and might be too short anyway.

Just my 2 cents
\N

> On 23 May 2019, at 14:38, Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

Philippe clemenceau

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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Hi,

$6000 USD seems a very high price for 2 more TB.

Just a few months ago, Samsung had 2 TB SSDs that were priced around $600 USD.
1TB SSD is priced at $300 USD.

My company offers computers as well for our COAX high speed cameras, and it should not be very expensive to add 2TB.

Regards,

Philippe Clémenceau,
Co-Founder, MS in Optical Science
Axiom Optics, Excellence in advanced imaging and optical metrology

Axiom Optics/Imagine Optic Inc
@Greentown Labs
444 Somerville ave
Somerville, MA 02143, USA

Phone: (617) 401 2198
Mobile: (617) 869 3131
www.axiomoptics.com <http://www.axiomoptics.com/>

Meet us at the NALM microscopy workshop <http://www.axiomoptics.com/events/new-approaches-in-light-microscopy-workshop-2019/>, June 4-6, 2019 at Harvard University, Cambridge, MA , USA

Check out ARGO-Power <http://www.axiomoptics.com/alm/argo-slides/>, a new solution for fluorescence microscopy quality assessment

> On May 23, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

Michael Giacomelli-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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How fast are you acquiring data?

Entry level SSDs are about $120/TB (~1GB/s write) while high
performance SSDs are $250/TB (~2.5 GB/s write). Since SSDs are very
inexpensive, that $6000 is probably getting you more than just a
couple hundred dollars worth of disks?

Mike

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:49 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:

Julio MATEOS_LANGERAK

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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Hi,

Multidimensional time lapses can grow very fast in size and I think it’s something worth considering. I would do some math with the expected experiments. That said, I think the delta in price for 2Tb is abusive.

If you are not sure about the data production I would delay the investment and see if it is something you may do your self for a few hundreds.

Meanwhile, consider the infrastructure downstream. How fast you can get the data out of the machine? How are you going to store and process that data? ...

Best, Julio

__________________________________________
Julio Mateos Langerak, PhD.
Montpellier RIO Imaging
Institut de Génétique Humaine-CNRS
141, rue de la Cardonille<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0>
F-34396<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> Montpellier<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> (France)
e-mail: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
phone: +33.4.34.35.99.90<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.90>
fax: +33.4.34.35.99.01<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.01>
URL: http://www.mri.cnrs.fr/
__________________________________________

Sent from my iPhone

On 23 May 2019, at 15:49, Mirco Martino <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
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*****

Hi all,

we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!

Pat Robison

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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While it can be hard to predict exactly what form new experiments will
take, I assume that you are buying a system for live imaging time lapse
because you or another user has a particular process in mind that you want
to image. It helps to make some back of the envelope type calculations- if
the timescale of my process is x seconds, I usually want 2-3 frames every x
seconds for minimalist capture, up to maybe 10 frames every x seconds if I
want kinetics. That capture rate, stack size (given by the physical
dimensions of your sample and the z diffraction limit), and the expected
time you can keep a sample on the scope gives you a good maximum estimate
of how many frames to expect, and therefore file size. I would echo what
others have said about the SSD though- 6k is an awful lot of money for that
much drive, and there is not much benefit to having a RAID be solid state
to begin with. If possible I would upgrade myself with a normal RAID for a
fraction of the cost.

-Pat Robison

On Thu, May 23, 2019, 9:48 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email] wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

Zdenek Svindrych-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Michael Giacomelli-2

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*****

Hi Mike,
where did you get the numbers? Regular SSDs I've seen are around 500 MB/s,
both read and write. And SATA III speed is around 600 MB/s!
That's not quite enough even for a single 10-tap CameraLink camera (800
MB/s).
SSD RAID may seem an overkill, but you don't want to sacrifice speed just
because of poor PS specs... Of course RAID 0 array of regular hard drives
should work too, but the probability of data loss (due to failure of one of
the disks) rises with number of disks.
Best, zdenek

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:14 AM Michael Giacomelli <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> How fast are you acquiring data?
>
> Entry level SSDs are about $120/TB (~1GB/s write) while high
> performance SSDs are $250/TB (~2.5 GB/s write). Since SSDs are very
> inexpensive, that $6000 is probably getting you more than just a
> couple hundred dollars worth of disks?
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:49 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=nX-3b6XyV2FiCHG_jHCWfrh-myCWr2GfKF7MI_5dSkw&e=
> > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=8uWKgCTHkbrb5Qy2tlQNRbo4HsPItFv_9ukvDnBgNPo&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> size.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

Christopher Yip

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Julio MATEOS_LANGERAK

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*****

enterprise SSD 7.4 TB — can be had for a lot less than $6K ….

I got a quote for a 100 TB raw 24 bay SSD array for < $30K US…

Chris

On May 23, 2019, at 10:18 AM, Julio MATEOS_LANGERAK <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
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*****

Hi,

Multidimensional time lapses can grow very fast in size and I think it’s something worth considering. I would do some math with the expected experiments. That said, I think the delta in price for 2Tb is abusive.

If you are not sure about the data production I would delay the investment and see if it is something you may do your self for a few hundreds.

Meanwhile, consider the infrastructure downstream. How fast you can get the data out of the machine? How are you going to store and process that data? ...

Best, Julio

__________________________________________
Julio Mateos Langerak, PhD.
Montpellier RIO Imaging
Institut de Génétique Humaine-CNRS
141, rue de la Cardonille<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0>
F-34396<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> Montpellier<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> (France)
e-mail: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
phone: +33.4.34.35.99.90<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.90>
fax: +33.4.34.35.99.01<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.01>
URL: http://www.mri.cnrs.fr/
__________________________________________

Sent from my iPhone

On 23 May 2019, at 15:49, Mirco Martino <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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*****

Hi all,

we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!

Tim Feinstein

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

*****
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I'd recommend splitting the scope computer from storage/analysis even independent of cost concerns. Connect an external RAID to the scope with high speed ethernet and have a separate workstation with deconvolution/processing/analysis apps. That way there isn't a traffic jam at the scope computer when one user wants to process their stuff while another is acquiring images, AND you don't pay scope vendor markup for more computer/storage than you strictly need for acquisition.

--T

Timothy Feinstein, Ph.D.
Research Scientist
Department of Developmental Biology
University of Pittsburgh

On 5/23/19, 10:55 AM, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Christopher Yip" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

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*****

enterprise SSD 7.4 TB — can be had for a lot less than $6K ….

I got a quote for a 100 TB raw 24 bay SSD array for < $30K US…

Chris

On May 23, 2019, at 10:18 AM, Julio MATEOS_LANGERAK <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

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*****

Hi,

Multidimensional time lapses can grow very fast in size and I think it’s something worth considering. I would do some math with the expected experiments. That said, I think the delta in price for 2Tb is abusive.

If you are not sure about the data production I would delay the investment and see if it is something you may do your self for a few hundreds.

Meanwhile, consider the infrastructure downstream. How fast you can get the data out of the machine? How are you going to store and process that data? ...

Best, Julio

__________________________________________
Julio Mateos Langerak, PhD.
Montpellier RIO Imaging
Institut de Génétique Humaine-CNRS
141, rue de la Cardonille<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0>
F-34396<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> Montpellier<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> (France)
e-mail: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
phone: +33.4.34.35.99.90<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.90>
fax: +33.4.34.35.99.01<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.01>
URL: https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mri.cnrs.fr%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=90e6baeLkprzGDOL%2BZaPTDWsmF7eg7naCOZl0lrf0CI%3D&reserved=0
__________________________________________

Sent from my iPhone

On 23 May 2019, at 15:49, Mirco Martino <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

*****
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*****

Hi all,

we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!

Christopher Yip

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

> On May 23, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Feinstein, Timothy N <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I'd recommend splitting the scope computer from storage/analysis even independent of cost concerns. Connect an external RAID to the scope with high speed ethernet and have a separate workstation with deconvolution/processing/analysis apps. That way there isn't a traffic jam at the scope computer when one user wants to process their stuff while another is acquiring images, AND you don't pay scope vendor markup for more computer/storage than you strictly need for acquisition.
>
> --T
>
>
> Timothy Feinstein, Ph.D.
> Research Scientist
> Department of Developmental Biology
> University of Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/23/19, 10:55 AM, "Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Christopher Yip" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038761693&sdata=ffYp%2BUoGJ5PcSs5yevL3vHRt85FxF8x8vd3vmAICzok%3D&reserved=0
> Post images on https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=Wx9FjgDzthx0sBf%2FPTwZOQxXgV5lOaKGY61xlMFLO3E%3D&reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> enterprise SSD 7.4 TB — can be had for a lot less than $6K ….
>
> I got a quote for a 100 TB raw 24 bay SSD array for < $30K US…
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> On May 23, 2019, at 10:18 AM, Julio MATEOS_LANGERAK <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=uSAbyVCuuvFD7hU%2Bx0ufm26YR%2BLxa8T89Mbo1bYnW1Q%3D&reserved=0
> Post images on https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=Wx9FjgDzthx0sBf%2FPTwZOQxXgV5lOaKGY61xlMFLO3E%3D&reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi,
>
> Multidimensional time lapses can grow very fast in size and I think it’s something worth considering. I would do some math with the expected experiments. That said, I think the delta in price for 2Tb is abusive.
>
> If you are not sure about the data production I would delay the investment and see if it is something you may do your self for a few hundreds.
>
> Meanwhile, consider the infrastructure downstream. How fast you can get the data out of the machine? How are you going to store and process that data? ...
>
> Best, Julio
>
> __________________________________________
> Julio Mateos Langerak, PhD.
> Montpellier RIO Imaging
> Institut de Génétique Humaine-CNRS
> 141, rue de la Cardonille<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0>
> F-34396<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> Montpellier<x-apple-data-detectors://1/0> (France)
> e-mail: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
> phone: +33.4.34.35.99.90<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.90>
> fax: +33.4.34.35.99.01<tel:+33.4.34.35.99.01>
> URL: https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mri.cnrs.fr%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=90e6baeLkprzGDOL%2BZaPTDWsmF7eg7naCOZl0lrf0CI%3D&reserved=0
> __________________________________________
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 23 May 2019, at 15:49, Mirco Martino <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.umn.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fwa%3FA0%3Dconfocalmicroscopy&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=uSAbyVCuuvFD7hU%2Bx0ufm26YR%2BLxa8T89Mbo1bYnW1Q%3D&reserved=0
> Post images on https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imgur.com&data=02%7C01%7Ctnf8%40PITT.EDU%7Cffb23422bdf446570fe108d6df8ea1c7%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1%7C0%7C636942201038771684&sdata=Wx9FjgDzthx0sBf%2FPTwZOQxXgV5lOaKGY61xlMFLO3E%3D&reserved=0 and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>
>
>

Michael Giacomelli-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Zdenek Svindrych-2

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Hi Zdenek,

SATA SSDs have been obsolete for a while now. PCIe 3.0 NVME devices
have a bidirectional 4GB/s transfer rate. For smaller acquisitions,
any cheap device will be protocol limited (> 3GB/s), but only for the
first 50-100GB, and they'll drop down to about 1GB/s as the disk fills
up. More expensive devices can sustain closer to 2GB/s over the
entire space. Very expensive devices will sustain 3GB/s, but there is
no point with RAID. Just buy another disk and you get more capacity
and the same bandwidth for less.

By the way, now that SSD storage is hitting $100/TB, and PCIe 4.0
devices are about to launch, affordable devices with 6-7 GB/s
bandwidth in a single drive shouldn't be too far away. I think pretty
soon there will be little point in RAID; parallelism will be internal
to the "disk".

Mike

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:52 AM Zdenek Svindrych <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=7y0U_-tpAhO9gQanIo1BngyWx9ur1ny6Ctwdzd0rQv8&e=
> Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=__SRaWSmRiycUG3SBFXuuAhfxcv3RJUdfkrkUwovNAM&e= and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Mike,
> where did you get the numbers? Regular SSDs I've seen are around 500 MB/s,
> both read and write. And SATA III speed is around 600 MB/s!
> That's not quite enough even for a single 10-tap CameraLink camera (800
> MB/s).
> SSD RAID may seem an overkill, but you don't want to sacrifice speed just
> because of poor PS specs... Of course RAID 0 array of regular hard drives
> should work too, but the probability of data loss (due to failure of one of
> the disks) rises with number of disks.
> Best, zdenek
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:14 AM Michael Giacomelli <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=7y0U_-tpAhO9gQanIo1BngyWx9ur1ny6Ctwdzd0rQv8&e=
> > Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=__SRaWSmRiycUG3SBFXuuAhfxcv3RJUdfkrkUwovNAM&e= and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > How fast are you acquiring data?
> >
> > Entry level SSDs are about $120/TB (~1GB/s write) while high
> > performance SSDs are $250/TB (~2.5 GB/s write). Since SSDs are very
> > inexpensive, that $6000 is probably getting you more than just a
> > couple hundred dollars worth of disks?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:49 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > *****
> > > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > >
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=nX-3b6XyV2FiCHG_jHCWfrh-myCWr2GfKF7MI_5dSkw&e=
> > > Post images on
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=8uWKgCTHkbrb5Qy2tlQNRbo4HsPItFv_9ukvDnBgNPo&e=
> > and include the link in your posting.
> > > *****
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> > include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> > memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> > 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> > imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> > multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> > those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> > will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> > size.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
> >
>
>
> --
> --
> Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
> Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
> Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
> Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

Garner Oliver, BergmanLabora AB

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

*****
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*****

Hi Mirco,

A 1TB Samsung 860 PRO SSD using SATA600 is around 2500SEK (~$200). Assuming you will have decent Intel architecture in the new PC (e.g. HP Z4 workstation) you can use the intel rapid storage technology driver to put multiples in RAID0. You would need to do this if you'd like to stream 100fps from a sCMOS.

In general, I agree with the other posts on having such a graphics card/amount of RAM. For the acquisition PC I would go for stability and run the heavy computation (deconv. Advanced 3D analysis, etc.) on an offline station.

Good luck!

Vänlig hälsning / Best regards

Oliver

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mirco Martino
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 3:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!

Zdenek Svindrych-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Michael Giacomelli-2

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Thanks for the update, Mike!
I've missed the moment they grew to usable size (2 TB only, though). And
RAID controllers are quite affordable, too. So a decent 8 TB fast storage
(4 x 860 EVO 2TB, PCIe x16 controller) would come at $1800. Would handle
two cameras easily.
Need to remember this in case we do some upgrades.
Best, zdenek

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM Michael Giacomelli <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi Zdenek,
>
> SATA SSDs have been obsolete for a while now. PCIe 3.0 NVME devices
> have a bidirectional 4GB/s transfer rate. For smaller acquisitions,
> any cheap device will be protocol limited (> 3GB/s), but only for the
> first 50-100GB, and they'll drop down to about 1GB/s as the disk fills
> up. More expensive devices can sustain closer to 2GB/s over the
> entire space. Very expensive devices will sustain 3GB/s, but there is
> no point with RAID. Just buy another disk and you get more capacity
> and the same bandwidth for less.
>
> By the way, now that SSD storage is hitting $100/TB, and PCIe 4.0
> devices are about to launch, affordable devices with 6-7 GB/s
> bandwidth in a single drive shouldn't be too far away. I think pretty
> soon there will be little point in RAID; parallelism will be internal
> to the "disk".
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:52 AM Zdenek Svindrych <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=7y0U_-tpAhO9gQanIo1BngyWx9ur1ny6Ctwdzd0rQv8&e=
> > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=__SRaWSmRiycUG3SBFXuuAhfxcv3RJUdfkrkUwovNAM&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > where did you get the numbers? Regular SSDs I've seen are around 500
> MB/s,
> > both read and write. And SATA III speed is around 600 MB/s!
> > That's not quite enough even for a single 10-tap CameraLink camera (800
> > MB/s).
> > SSD RAID may seem an overkill, but you don't want to sacrifice speed just
> > because of poor PS specs... Of course RAID 0 array of regular hard drives
> > should work too, but the probability of data loss (due to failure of one
> of
> > the disks) rises with number of disks.
> > Best, zdenek
> >
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:14 AM Michael Giacomelli <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > *****
> > > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=7y0U_-tpAhO9gQanIo1BngyWx9ur1ny6Ctwdzd0rQv8&e=
> > > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=__SRaWSmRiycUG3SBFXuuAhfxcv3RJUdfkrkUwovNAM&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > > *****
> > >
> > > How fast are you acquiring data?
> > >
> > > Entry level SSDs are about $120/TB (~1GB/s write) while high
> > > performance SSDs are $250/TB (~2.5 GB/s write). Since SSDs are very
> > > inexpensive, that $6000 is probably getting you more than just a
> > > couple hundred dollars worth of disks?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:49 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > *****
> > > > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > > >
> > >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=nX-3b6XyV2FiCHG_jHCWfrh-myCWr2GfKF7MI_5dSkw&e=
> > > > Post images on
> > >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=8uWKgCTHkbrb5Qy2tlQNRbo4HsPItFv_9ukvDnBgNPo&e=
> > > and include the link in your posting.
> > > > *****
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The
> system
> > > include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb
> of
> > > memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the
> SSD-RAID to
> > > 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed
> materiel
> > > imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> > > multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to
> invest
> > > those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time
> we
> > > will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as
> pictures
> > > size.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
> > Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
> > Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
> > Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

Vergara, Leoncio A.

Re: [EXTERNAL] [CONFOCALMICROSCOPY] SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

*****
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

I would second the motion of separating image acquisition from analysis and long term storage, especially if you will capture lots of multidimensional data sets. You want the acquisition computer to be reserved for acquisition and not sequestered for long times by people doing image analysis and rendering.

Leoncio A. Vergara MD | Co-Director, Center for Advanced Imaging
Center for Translational Cancer Research, Institute for Biosciences and Technology| Texas A&M University
Alkek Building | 2121 W. Holcombe Blvd | Houston, TX 77030
ph: 713.677.7636 | mobile: 409.750.2153 | [hidden email]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
MAKING WHAT IF POSSIBLE | whatif.tamhsc.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mirco Martino
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 8:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [CONFOCALMICROSCOPY] SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=cpvmSBWXd8YiHoMtYk_a9E2QIiaEheG3-gfMB16YPq0&r=q_wjVHQNtuyPtW0pWZ8VUASIgPYhLzAdCNyJUslsVzo&m=LCPb84z6izGdGKiaXi-FTSlwkRi9p6Nx3t4xjpHAWtI&s=O2I-QqeeLczV9CB1YYJOp-mgVIOImBdIrs0WtDDdk84&e= and include the link in your posting.
*****

Hi all,

we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures size.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!

Michael Giacomelli-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Zdenek Svindrych-2

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Hi Zdenek,

NVME SSDs don't typically use a RAID controller, they're just PCIe devices, so you just plug them in and let the OS (or Intel's PCIe chipset if you use RST) handle RAID.

Those 860 EVOs are SATA devices, so the 970s would be a better choice from Samsung. Beware these are TLC disk and will slow down considerably (~1TB/s) as you write more and more, but this is usually ok unless you require very high sustained performance. There are also much cheaper and only marginally slower options you could use as well: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07R6V31K8?tag=georiot-us-default-20

Mike

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM Zdenek Svindrych <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
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Thanks for the update, Mike!
I've missed the moment they grew to usable size (2 TB only, though). And
RAID controllers are quite affordable, too. So a decent 8 TB fast storage
(4 x 860 EVO 2TB, PCIe x16 controller) would come at $1800. Would handle
two cameras easily.
Need to remember this in case we do some upgrades.
Best, zdenek

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM Michael Giacomelli <
[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

> *****
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> *****
>
> Hi Zdenek,
>
> SATA SSDs have been obsolete for a while now. PCIe 3.0 NVME devices
> have a bidirectional 4GB/s transfer rate. For smaller acquisitions,
> any cheap device will be protocol limited (> 3GB/s), but only for the
> first 50-100GB, and they'll drop down to about 1GB/s as the disk fills
> up. More expensive devices can sustain closer to 2GB/s over the
> entire space. Very expensive devices will sustain 3GB/s, but there is
> no point with RAID. Just buy another disk and you get more capacity
> and the same bandwidth for less.
>
> By the way, now that SSD storage is hitting $100/TB, and PCIe 4.0
> devices are about to launch, affordable devices with 6-7 GB/s
> bandwidth in a single drive shouldn't be too far away. I think pretty
> soon there will be little point in RAID; parallelism will be internal
> to the "disk".
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:52 AM Zdenek Svindrych <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
> >
> > *****
> > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> >
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> > Post images on
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> and include the link in your posting.
> > *****
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> > where did you get the numbers? Regular SSDs I've seen are around 500
> MB/s,
> > both read and write. And SATA III speed is around 600 MB/s!
> > That's not quite enough even for a single 10-tap CameraLink camera (800
> > MB/s).
> > SSD RAID may seem an overkill, but you don't want to sacrifice speed just
> > because of poor PS specs... Of course RAID 0 array of regular hard drives
> > should work too, but the probability of data loss (due to failure of one
> of
> > the disks) rises with number of disks.
> > Best, zdenek
> >
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:14 AM Michael Giacomelli <
> > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >
> > > *****
> > > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=7y0U_-tpAhO9gQanIo1BngyWx9ur1ny6Ctwdzd0rQv8&e=
> > > Post images on
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=QQs8Y17ATbc0ymJwJplCIBmeOhYv7aHFM68KU966354&s=__SRaWSmRiycUG3SBFXuuAhfxcv3RJUdfkrkUwovNAM&e=
> and include the link in your posting.
> > > *****
> > >
> > > How fast are you acquiring data?
> > >
> > > Entry level SSDs are about $120/TB (~1GB/s write) while high
> > > performance SSDs are $250/TB (~2.5 GB/s write). Since SSDs are very
> > > inexpensive, that $6000 is probably getting you more than just a
> > > couple hundred dollars worth of disks?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:49 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > *****
> > > > To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> > > >
> > >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.umn.edu_cgi-2Dbin_wa-3FA0-3Dconfocalmicroscopy&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=nX-3b6XyV2FiCHG_jHCWfrh-myCWr2GfKF7MI_5dSkw&e=
> > > > Post images on
> > >
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.imgur.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=0LyF_z8oU1XGGyisIeOIXyIGIM5IYb3NcLjxHjUca5Y&m=wrk9nduuxxvkAtGOYqFJUAMGuGZJXQE7KSXKZ5WXt60&s=8uWKgCTHkbrb5Qy2tlQNRbo4HsPItFv_9ukvDnBgNPo&e=
> > > and include the link in your posting.
> > > > *****
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The
> system
> > > include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb
> of
> > > memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the
> SSD-RAID to
> > > 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed
> materiel
> > > imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> > > multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to
> invest
> > > those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time
> we
> > > will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as
> pictures
> > > size.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
> > Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
> > Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
> > Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth
>

--
--
Zdenek Svindrych, Ph.D.
Research Associate - Imaging Specialist
Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology
Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth

Craig Brideau

Re: [EXTERNAL] [CONFOCALMICROSCOPY] SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Vergara, Leoncio A.

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NVMe M.2 or U.2 solid state drives are about the fastest things possible
these days. If you hooked a pair up in RAID 0 configuration you would have
the fastest practical read/write speed available. This is great for working
with large data sets, but silly for long-term storage. I'd suggest enough
'high speed' drive to handle working on your data sets (however big you
believe they will be) and then, as others have suggested, use a 10 gig
connection to a much larger and (relatively) slower storage system.

Craig

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:37 AM Vergara, Leoncio A. <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
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> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> I would second the motion of separating image acquisition from analysis
> and long term storage, especially if you will capture lots of
> multidimensional data sets. You want the acquisition computer to be
> reserved for acquisition and not sequestered for long times by people doing
> image analysis and rendering.
>
> Leoncio A. Vergara MD | Co-Director, Center for Advanced Imaging
> Center for Translational Cancer Research, Institute for Biosciences and
> Technology| Texas A&M University
> Alkek Building | 2121 W. Holcombe Blvd | Houston, TX 77030
> ph: 713.677.7636 | mobile: 409.750.2153 | [hidden email]
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> MAKING WHAT IF POSSIBLE | whatif.tamhsc.edu
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Confocal Microscopy List <[hidden email]> On
> Behalf Of Mirco Martino
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 8:38 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [CONFOCALMICROSCOPY] SSD-RAID for new wide-field
> microscopy system
>
> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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> Post images on
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> and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

G. Esteban Fernandez

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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I assume you inadvertently added an extra ‘0’ to the price. Even so, I’d do
a 10TB or more HDD (not SSD). That is what I have on our widefield live
imaging system and lightsheet and it works well for semi-temporary storage,
and yes I do need that much space for widefield live imaging in a
multi-user facility; 4TB would be a bit inconvenient for me as I’d have to
get data out more frequently. One 10TB HDD should be about $300, and I
guess you’d need two for backup/parallel RAID array.

-Esteban

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:48 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

Vitaly Boyko-2

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Michael Giacomelli-2

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It is as usual, salesmen selling you what you do not need. One of the best examples, Zeiss is selling Z840 for their basic wide-field system, where there are only two USB port are utilized, one for the microscope, and another (via PCIe x1 USB 3.0 port) for the CMOS camera. Z440 is an overkill for Zeiss wide-field system. But Zeiss is "smart" to profit from you "doing nothing". If you need speed, just buy a USB3.1 PCIe x4 card, but likely you do not need it. Do not waste money on RAID for data acquisition, GPU is over quoted, nVidia P2000 is more than you need, unless there is on-fly deconvolution, then P4000 should be good enough. 64GB of fast DDR4 memory is enough. What kind on memory is "hidden" under "512 gb of memory"? You may need fast NVMe SSD for data caching, again likely NOT during acquisition. ZEN could be less dependent on Windows 10 (rather more independent), but Zeiss has to learnt it yet. For data storage, just attach DAS box with LSI x8 MegaRaid controller to acquisition or image processing workstation with 8-16 Enterprise edition 8 TB hard drives in RAID 10 for transient data processing, or RAID 6 for long-term storage. If you have any questions, please contact me offline.

On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 10:14:34 AM EDT, Michael Giacomelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

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How fast are you acquiring data?

Entry level SSDs are about $120/TB (~1GB/s write) while high
performance SSDs are $250/TB (~2.5 GB/s write). Since SSDs are very
inexpensive, that $6000 is probably getting you more than just a
couple hundred dollars worth of disks?

Mike

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 9:49 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:

Guy Hagen

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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Dear Friends:
I generally try to build my own computers, and for my new one I bought a
4TB hard drive $109.

I find this sort of behavior from the microscope companies to be very
offensive. It is the same trick they use when they try to sell you a laser
for $14,000 which you can buy yourself directly from the manufacturer for
less than half that price. I (try to) refuse to deal with them when they
are so blatantly jacking up the prices like this.
cheers,
Guy Hagen

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 7:48 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>

0000001ed7f52e4a-dmarc-request

Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

In reply to this post by Mirco Martino

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*****

While I agree that the prices are high, I think you have to see this over the lifetime of the microscope.

A computer which looks like an overkill now, will look pretty old in a few years, I am happy with the Zeiss workstations on our widefield systems.

The companies have to make sure that they can supply replacement parts for the lifetime of the instrument, so you are not only buying a component, but also piece of mind for the future and maybe some additional quality control at their end.

But it is sad that things still break down or become obsolete too quickly for the steep price.

Best wishes
Andreas

-----Original Message-----
From: Guy Hagen <[hidden email]>
To: CONFOCALMICROSCOPY <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, May 24, 2019 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: SSD-RAID for new wide-field microscopy system

*****
To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
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Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
*****

Dear Friends:
I generally try to build my own computers, and for my new one I bought a
4TB hard drive $109.

I find this sort of behavior from the microscope companies to be very
offensive. It is the same trick they use when they try to sell you a laser
for $14,000 which you can buy yourself directly from the manufacturer for
less than half that price. I (try to) refuse to deal with them when they
are so blatantly jacking up the prices like this.
cheers,
Guy Hagen

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 7:48 AM Mirco Martino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> *****
> To join, leave or search the confocal microscopy listserv, go to:
> http://lists.umn.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=confocalmicroscopy
> Post images on http://www.imgur.com and include the link in your posting.
> *****
>
> Hi all,
>
> we are buying a new fluorescent microscope wide-field system. The system
> include a workstation with 64GB DDR4 RAM, 11GB of graphic card, 512 gb of
> memory and SSD-RAID of 2TB. There is an option to increase the SSD-RAID to
> 4TB for about 6000$ extra. The system will be use for both fixed materiel
> imaging and for live-imaging with time-laps, z-stack, tiling and
> multi-fluorophores experiments. I was wondering if it is worth to invest
> those extra money for this option or not. This will be the first time we
> will have time-laps experiments, so I don't know what to expect as pictures
> size.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments and opinions!
>